Apple Engineers Its Own Downfall with the Macbook Pro Keyboard • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple Engineers Its Own Downfall with the Macbook Pro Keyboard

#791

Post by sanderjd » Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 4:11 PM UTC

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #357

Symbiote wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Running Linux, of course. I wish more people would. That's the best way to get any issues fixed, whether by filing bug reports, writing up a workaround on a wiki or Stackoverflow to help others, or fixing the bug. It's important for us to own our own tools, and keep the right to do with them as we wish. We expect this for our servers, but ignore it for laptops and desktops. If developers continue like this, then us…

And why do you think that a lot of people who are painfully aware of all the issues you mention still refuse to use Linux on a laptop while happily using it on servers? There is a riduculous repetitiveness about this debate. For me and many others, Linux on a laptop has always been unstable, insecure, hot and noisy. Many specific issues can be fixed if you put in the effort, but on almost every dist-upgrade something…

I really believe that what it will take is an actual business that makes actual money selling a laptop with good hardware and an integrated linux install that they maintain. Instead of getting into a flamefest on the ubuntu message board where you have a completely different set of hardware and drivers than the people you're debating, you file a support ticket that the audio on your IntegratedLinuxLaptop 5 seems to have stopped working, and someone at this company figures out what's wrong and patches the exact right driver or system software to fix it. If that doesn't sound like a viable business, well, that's why this is still a problem.

Re: Apple Engineers Its Own Downfall with the Macbook Pro Keyboard

#792

Post by blackaspen » Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 4:16 PM UTC

sanderjd wrote: post #785

fhood wrote: post #749

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Literally praying that they fix this crap in the next update. My mbp is getting on in years, and if they don't do something I'm going to move to linux for my next machine.

Maybe this is a market opportunity for somebody to build a laptop with high end components (monitor, keyboard, touchpad) running a super-duper-well-integrated linux.

I believe you're looking for the XPS13 that comes with Ubuntu.

Re: Apple Engineers Its Own Downfall with the Macbook Pro Keyboard

#793

Post by lolpython » Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 4:19 PM UTC

sanderjd wrote: post #785

fhood wrote: post #749

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Literally praying that they fix this crap in the next update. My mbp is getting on in years, and if they don't do something I'm going to move to linux for my next machine.

Maybe this is a market opportunity for somebody to build a laptop with high end components (monitor, keyboard, touchpad) running a super-duper-well-integrated linux.

I certainly agree. System76 [1] is probably your best option there. They're attempting to do just that.

1. https://system76.com/laptops

Re: Apple Engineers Its Own Downfall with the Macbook Pro Keyboard

#794

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 4:20 PM UTC

m_st wrote: post #464

jarym wrote: post #418

Stupid Apple - I blame Schiller. They won’t support 32Gb ram because it might decrease battery life and requires them to reengineer the logic board but they’re totally cool with a fragile ass keyboard GLUED to a battery! Really there’s no way to call this anything other than insanity. I remember the media used to talk about the ‘halo effect’ - well I’m someone who has Almost every MBP between 2002-2012 and every iPho…

Apple (MBP15 late 2013, iMac 27 late 2009) user at home, Dell XPS 15 9550 (2015) user at work here. While I totally agree with you about the new MBP, please just know that the XPS 15 isn't without it's problems too! It must just be that Windows users are more used to lower quality hardware/software that such things are accepted... I really like my XPS 15 as it is fast and as compact as a MBP, but: - Microsoft Surface…

[deleted]

Re: Apple Engineers Its Own Downfall with the Macbook Pro Keyboard

#795

Post by ravenstine » Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 4:20 PM UTC

neuronic wrote: post #721

protonimitate wrote: post #684

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does anyone have any insight into why Apple's QA took a turn for the worse over the past couple years? Buggy IOS/OS releases and now the hardware issues... I always equated Apple with quality and consistency (along with price), but now I can't really see how the price is justified with the issues they have been having.

When Jony Ive became more important than (the now defunct) Steve Jobs, form rose over functionality.

> (the now defunct) Steve Jobs

That's one way to refer to a dead guy.

Re: Apple Engineers Its Own Downfall with the Macbook Pro Keyboard

#796

Post by stcredzero » Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 4:20 PM UTC

HuggableSquare wrote: post #328

stcredzero wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those things aren't taught in CS programs as the majority of companies don't need those skills. Most want application development such-as a web or iOS app developer. This sort of thing is very relevant for someone writing an application or a server process. Programmers who can write their own compiler are much better C and C++ programmers, because they have relevant background. Programmers who understand the low leve…

I'm just going to throw in my experience here as someone who never went to college but currently writes software for a living. I do mainly frontend web development with EmberJS, and occasionally work on our backend which is also JS, and I've been doing that for a little over 2 years now. I never went to college and so a lot of the stuff you guys have been talking about in this thread goes right over my head. I've nev…

I never went to college and so a lot of the stuff you guys have been talking about in this thread goes right over my head...I think it's very elitist to judge people for not knowing everything you do, even if you think it's important.

Fair enough. However, if someone did go to college, they should at least know what they know, and know what they don't know. If someone is applying to a job with a 3.75 GPA where they might be doing some C++ and they go into an interview and try to tell you that a null pointer takes up no data, they haven't been well served by their education. They should at least know what they don't know, and not waste everybody's time.

However, you should know that these things are important. There are levels of knowledge deeper than being just a user of something.

I think mindsets like yours are what help drive people away from it because they think they need a ton of knowledge to get an entry-level job, and that's just simply not true.

So a generalist Comp Sci degree just needs to shrink into Web Development because of your feelings? Look, Web Development is a fine job, but it's not the same as a generalist field of knowledge like Comp Sci. Should mechanics expect that a Physics degree only be limited to their knowledge because of their feelings? They're applying Physics, after all. (Warning: don't you go and denigrate mechanics! That would be elitist.)

The very fact that you can have a job in tech without a Comp Sci degree isn't a justification for the dumbing down of Comp Sci. It shows that it happened needlessly!

Maybe it is relevant and I just haven't figured that out yet, but from where I'm sitting that feels like something that could be taught instead of a hard and fast rule for hiring.

Let's say you discovered an interviewee thought that a 404 meant the request never made it to the server. Let's say they also got a 4.0 GPA at some Web Development coding academy with a great reputation. Wouldn't you at least be scratching your head?

These are things that used to be taught in a Computer Science degree. Now they aren't taught, and companies are going to have to teach new graduate hires this stuff that people used to take multiple semesters to learn? It also used to be that Freshmen in college were expected to know how to conjugate verbs and compose grammatically correct sentences. Now TAs (I used to be one) are expected to teach these things to Freshmen. How is this not a decline in standards?

Re: Apple Engineers Its Own Downfall with the Macbook Pro Keyboard

#797

Post by andrei_says_ » Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 4:25 PM UTC

organsnyder wrote: post #670

luag wrote: post #543

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think adopting USB-C is fine, but going USB-C only was too early.

I'm a big fan of USB-C—I try to avoid purchasing any devices without it. But I use the non-USB-C ports on my ThinkPad T480—HDMI, USB-A, Ethernet—on a regular basis. It also has a hot-swappable battery, superb typing experience, and is easily serviced. And it weighs about the same as a MBP (right in between the 13" and 15" MBP, which makes sense since it's a 14" laptop).

I would pay $100-300 for macOS on hardware like this.

Re: Apple Engineers Its Own Downfall with the Macbook Pro Keyboard

#798

Post by stcredzero » Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 4:25 PM UTC

jacobsenscott wrote: post #226

stcredzero wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those things aren't taught in CS programs as the majority of companies don't need those skills. Most want application development such-as a web or iOS app developer. This sort of thing is very relevant for someone writing an application or a server process. Programmers who can write their own compiler are much better C and C++ programmers, because they have relevant background. Programmers who understand the low leve…

My school's primary languages were C and C++, and a smattering of java because it was just getting popular. Certainly the low level understanding that comes from writing a lot of code in those languages is helpful. But the imperative/procedural mindset that it drills into you leads to some really terrible application code, and it takes a lot of exposure to higher level languages to break out of that mindset. It took…

By all means hire a C++ programmer to write your web app.

No one is advocating that anyone write web apps with C++. There are other kinds of servers. The complaint is that the once generalist value of a Comp Sci degree is now dumbed down, and grads are missing background knowledge they once had.

But also be prepared for some heinous procedural js/ruby/php/clojure/elixer/whatever.

This is yet another failing of Comp Sci degrees.

Re: Apple Engineers Its Own Downfall with the Macbook Pro Keyboard

#799

Post by eftpotrm » Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 4:25 PM UTC

sanderjd wrote: post #785

fhood wrote: post #749

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Literally praying that they fix this crap in the next update. My mbp is getting on in years, and if they don't do something I'm going to move to linux for my next machine.

Maybe this is a market opportunity for somebody to build a laptop with high end components (monitor, keyboard, touchpad) running a super-duper-well-integrated linux.

That sounds very like my Dell XPS 13 (on which, in fairness, I run Windows).

But - I have to say I preferred the hardware on my old Sony Vaio Pro 13. The Dell keyboard is OK but the action isn't great, the battery life isn't great, and I really miss the extra thinness from having a carbon shell instead of aluminium.

The perfect laptop will exist somewhere, eventually...!

Re: Apple Engineers Its Own Downfall with the Macbook Pro Keyboard

#800

Post by konart » Thu, Jun 28, 2018, 4:27 PM UTC

ender89 wrote: post #728

cptskippy wrote: post #710

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They no longer have Steve Jobs Quality Control? He was the type of person to play with something for 5 minutes and say "yeah... no" or to eagerly take something he liked and abuse the hell out of it for 24 hours then come back with a laundry list of improvements. He was a jerk and he cared deeply about user experience. In his absence you have what exactly? Tim Cook lacks vision, if you want your mountain moved to Plu…

It's more like Steve Jobs was such an uncompromising asshole that he would rather throw a substandard product in the garbage than put out something he considered lesser. He didn't have vision, nothing he "made" was revolutionary at all, and he didn't make anything after the NeXT. Steve Jobs was amazing at two things: getting in on the ground floor (the iphone came out so quickly after the first all touch screen smart…

>and making sure that what they did put out either worked or didn't see the light of day

Regardless Job's issues, this was the best and most importand part.

Your toaster should work! If the user has to push the trigger twice (only to have it overcooked) - you should either work on your mistakes and release when you are finished, or throw a it in the garbage.