Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

techcrunch.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

791–800 of 1001 posts

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#791

Post by bduerst »

stcredzero wrote: post #690
bduerst wrote: post #656

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, which may be fine for the burden of proof for a personal opinion. Incorrectly using evidence to support your opinion as you broadcast it at work, and not listening, discussing, or considering critical feedback (like this) is a different matter. Especially when it means incorrectly classifying your co-workers and trying to change how your work fights social biases.

Incorrectly using evidence to support your opinion as you broadcast it at work Sorry, but while your observation is interesting, there is nothing incorrect about citing such evidence. Especially when it means incorrectly classifying your co-workers and trying to change how your work fights social biases. Exactly how did James Damore go about classifying specific co-workers? [Citation Needed] Seriously, cite James Dam…

Sure - The example in context to this thread is right here in Damore's memo:

> Women, on average, have more:

> - Openness directed towards feelings and aesthetics rather than ideas...

> - Extraversion expressed as gregariousness rather than assertiveness...

> - Neuroticism...

Damore supports this with a link [1] to a Wikipedia article, which immediately says:

> On the scales measured by the Big Five personality traits women consistently report higher Neuroticism, agreeableness, warmth (an extraversion facet)...

Damore incorrectly uses this information to make the broad statement that "Women have..." instead of "Women self-report...". This is incorrectly classifying your women coworkers as being, among other things, more neurotic than their male counterparts.

You may think, "So what?", but this is being used in an argument about how a company fights social biases, and this is incredibly relevant because lexical self-reporting is open to the same biases that are being fought. Damore, intentionally or not, glosses over this, but more importantly was not receptive to this type of feedback, hence the broadcasting.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_psychology#...

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#792

Post by jacksmith21006 »

maoistinquisitr wrote: post #676
jacksmith21006 wrote: post #603

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has nothing to do with being right or left. It is simply a human decency thing. A manager and company is responsible for everyone and after he shared such views with his name you could never keep him and have him working along side women. Google did exactly what they had to do. It is not complicated.

This is the heckler's veto. Free speech is a cultural matter, not just a protection from the federal and state governments.

Google is a private company. They have no obligation and having an employee that does not get along pretty obvious has to go.

Why also nobody is going to hire him.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#793

Post by [deleted] »

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #765
bduerst wrote: post #656

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, which may be fine for the burden of proof for a personal opinion. Incorrectly using evidence to support your opinion as you broadcast it at work, and not listening, discussing, or considering critical feedback (like this) is a different matter. Especially when it means incorrectly classifying your co-workers and trying to change how your work fights social biases.

I think you may have it backwards. I'm not sure if you read his memo, but it was actually Damore who was inviting discussion and listening to feedback. He was not met with anything resembling constructive discussion, but instead was fired and publicly shamed, in most cases based on fabrications of statements that he did not make, and that did not reflect his intent. Even this techcrunch article is full of them unfort…

[deleted]

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#794

Post by jacksmith21006 »

Idontknowmyuser wrote: post #778
s73ver_ wrote: post #735

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But now you're getting into the "free speech for me, not for thee" part. You're basically saying that Damore is entitled to free speech and protection, but that Google and his former co-workers are not. Remember, who you work with is part of the freedom of association which is a component of free speech.

This is a strawman I'm very hard pressed to find anyone in HN at least who would deny Goolgle's right or another other party's right of writing a rebuttal to his claims. A free and open internal debate is exactly what Damore was trying to start. Firing to me at least is not speech, it's an inherently violent act.

Google is trying to run a company and having someone like Damore does not help that cause.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#795

Post by noonesays »

mikeryan wrote: post #152
vorotato wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Race and Sex are actually protected classes. Conservative however yes is totally not federally protected and neither is Socialist, or Liberal. Frankly I think that's weird, but the law is the law.

But I'm not sure[1] that you can combine classes like this to create a new protected class. No one is making the argument that Google discriminates based on race or sex. If this is more of a harassment suit then a discrimination claim it seems to have more legs. [1] I'm really not sure, I'm not kidding that I'm interested in how this plays out.

> No one is making the argument that Google discriminates based on race or sex.

The third cause of action of the filing is literally "workplace discrimination due to gender and/or race in violation of FEHA".

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#797

Post by noonesays »

manigandham wrote: post #418
dotnetisnotdead wrote: post #296

Honestly, this whole thing is just ugly. I read what he wrote. It was (mostly) ugly but contained a lot of truth. Before you downvote/call me a Nazi, I'm a mixed race woman in tech. I definitely see people hired just because of their minority status. I also see people hired who are minorities but also great at their job. It's not a binary pattern. But those who are hired just because they are a POC or female, yet are…

Diversity based on outward appearance is one of the most convoluted and ridiculous movements ever. We cannot spend decades trying to show that appearance is absolutely meaningless to talent, skills, and motivation, and then regress right back to it to show off "diversity". Also nobody ever seems to ask: diversity of what exactly? What's the target? Life experience? There is no qualitative score for that, nor is any s…

> Also nobody ever seems to ask: diversity of what exactly?

https://www.bis.org/review/r160531e.pdf asks literally "Diversity of what exactly?"

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#798

Post by jacksmith21006 »

sintaxi wrote: post #767
jacksmith21006 wrote: post #601

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally agree. How in the world could you have Damore on a team with women after the memo is out and people know he wrote it? I have never bought into this is some social political thing but rather just basic human decency. Never understood how the right wing got a hold of this and my only guess it was Damore or someone from the right wing that wanted this rather obvious HR issue as some social political issue. It is…

Google expects people to work with people who openly hate white men. Just take a look at some of their twitter feeds. Damore expressed no such opinion of women he just has a broader explanation for under-representation in tech other than sexism.

Google is a for profit company. Damore obviously did not help that with his views of women and Google did as any company with a brain would do and get rid of him.

Why on Earth do you think a former Google engineer is sitting at home unemployed? You would never want him on a team that had to get something done.

There is so many reasons to fire him and it is California so Google did not even need a reason.

But the more interesting thing is how did the become a right wing thing? Who was able to pull that off and use this as something to gen up the right wing? Is it not a bit manipulative of the right wingers? Do they not see it?

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#799

Post by dragonwriter »

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #781
dragonwriter wrote: post #702

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> EDIT: Also reminder some googlers kept politically motivated blacklists, if those blacklists were on company computers, Google will be hammered for it. Since they were G+ blocklists, they were obviously on company computers. OTOH, it's not clear (despite the lawsuits characterization, which is pretty directly contradicted by the posts and emails offered to support it) that these were motivated by ideology rather th…

> Which is why there won't be a settlement; it's clearly a politically motivated suit aimed to hurt Google as badly as possible; if Damore and the other individually named plaintiff were seeking to maximize the probability and magnitude of personal recompense, this would be a direct action. A settlement with no admission of guilt, no discovery, and just a go-away cash payment that’ll mostly be assigned to the attorne…

> You think a guy who got fired after a few years of work experience would rather make a company look bad than gain financial security?

No, I think Damore is savvy enough to be aware of (and, given his participation in right-wing media after the memo blew up, whether or not this was in his mind in advance, has likely since been counseled by others even more aware of) the fact that his route to maximizing financial returns from this affair lie in maximizing the media impact and his centrality to it, not maximizing the lawsuit payout.

> The reason we are hearing about the lawsuit is because he did try for a settlement, with terms much like you deacribe, and Google refused.

Pure speculation, both as to whether he attempted at settlement and what the terms he requested were if he did.

> You only go to court as a last resort, and that's what this is

That's obviously not a universal truth.

> That's also why we are only hearing about it now instead of when it happened

Damore filed an NLRB complaint almost simultaneously with his firing (it was subsequently withdrawn) and immediately started his intent to file a lawsuit; we know from the details of the law suit and the Damore camps own description that they spent the intervening time gathering stories to support a class action. You are spinning a fantasy out of speculation.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#800

Post by jacksmith21006 »

OCASM wrote: post #699
jacksmith21006 wrote: post #628

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The right wing and egging him on did not help him. It probably contributed to him not realizing the mistake he has made. Saw an interview with him and saying he needed to have his GF filter what he writes. I was thinking no that is not the issue. Instead do not share these things if they are in your head. Swear him saying that just made it worse. He clearly still does not get it.

He did nothing wrong.

Obviously he did. Weird that is not obvious. But Google does not need a reason.

BTW, the fact that a former Google engineer is sitting at home unemployed would suggest he did do something wrong.

Post reply on HN