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LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

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Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#791

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> wearing a bulletproof vest You joke, but I've considered it. Of course, the vest is probably visible and would be perceived as a threat.

> You joke Sad as it is, the suggestion was serious, and one of the things I considered if I ever had to live in the US. > Of course, the vest is probably visible and would be perceived as a threat. There are concealable vests (for undercover officers) which are significantly less noticeable than the classic "tactical" vest. I don't know how easy it is to access them without being an undercover LEO though, they need…

Most people shot in the US are already involved in a problem beforehand. You're not at much risk as a stranger. Death by driving or overeating are more realistic risks in the US. It's like worrying about terrorism. It really does only happen to other people.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#792

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's that quoted section without weird formatting: > There is plenty of reason to restrict the use of SWAT teams, but not to abolish them. They are needed now and then, when there is an actual hostage situation or an armed gang that tries to shoot it's way out. They should never be used for routine search or arrest warrants. That not only endangers the possibly innocent target of the raid, but it undermines the tea…

What's rendered weird specifically, on your system? I'm always very puzzled when I have to do HN quoting/bullet points, so I thought 80-columns code would fit well (evidently, it doesn't). I also wonder why HN doesn't improve formatting, which has at least a couple of very common problems (the mentioned code and bullet points rendering).

On my mobile, the text is cut off after the 25th character on each line and the browser doesn't render a horizontal scrollbar preventing me from seeing the right half of each line.

It would be nice if MIME format=flowed was a thing for quoted text on web pages that otherwise would be hard-wrapped.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#793

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this case there was no immediate and present danger yet SWAT was called in. There was a report which turned out to be false. The SWAT team also was under no danger when they shot this guy. I should add that being a police officer is not a particularly dangerous job. A telephone lineman has a dangerous job. A garbage man has a dangerous job. https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2015-dangerous-jobs/

I am going to strongly disagree. Being a cop is extremely dangerous — just because more cops don’t get hurt doesn’t mean it’s less dangerous. We can probably agree that being a race car driver is dangerous despite there not being a large number of injuries. Training and equipment mitigate some of the effects of the danger — but that doesn’t make it less dangerous. Spend a night doing a police ride along in a major ci…

"I am going to strongly disagree with well established statistical evidence" usually isn't a strong starting point for an argument.

> How many garbage men have been killed on the job by their customers or targeted specifically because of their job?

Why does this matter? Dead is dead. If you're more likely to be killed or injured doing that job, why does it matter how it comes about?

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#794
post #762

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in a country where guns are legal to own and the police still doesn't shoot random people for no reason. It's not that hard, just don't give the job to thugs.

Is gun ownership as common as in the US?

Norway has one of the highest gun ownership rates, and until some years back the territorial army had people keep their AG3 service weapons at home. Yet it's only been for time limited periods that police has been routinely armed, and they certainly also doesn't act like the US. I don't like guns, but I also don't think guns alone are sufficient to explain the high firearms related crime rate in the US.

Some of the differences:

1. a different gun culture. Most weapons in Norway are actually for hunting, and no that does not mean semi-automatics etc.. A few are for firing on a range, but there's no culture for seeing a firearm as intended for self defense, and the laws specifically makes it hard (you need to store the weapon locked down and inoperable, and generally you'd e.g. store gun and ammo separately; if you have time to arm yourself, police will question whether or not you had the ability to get away and call for help instead - if the threat is not immediate enough you risk a murder charge).

2. A culture for not meeting suspects with force unless they're armed, and generally focus on de-escalation, and for taking weapons use extremely seriously. E.g. officers need to account for every time they take their weapon out and every bullet fired.

3. A legal system that is generally lenient but where there is a clear path of escalation in response based on how dangerous a crime is. E.g. a robbery carries a sentence up to 5 years if unarmed, of which you'd generally serve less than half (and most people won't get the maximum sentence) - as an example, a robber that participated in a stealing one of the instances of Scream and Madonna by Munch got 2 years and 6 months a decade and a bit back.

Arm yourself, and you risk an additional 7 years. Kill or seriously injure someone during a robbery, and you might get 21. As an example, one of the largest armed robberies in recent Norwegian history, that ended up with one dead poice officer, (the "Nokas" robbery) ended up with one of them getting 18 years, and several others getting 16. That's a pretty substantial extra risk on top of the risks involved in a shootout with police.

Combine that with #2, and criminals have a very strong incentive in general for not being armed - by not arming themselves they don't risk being shot at by police, and they cut the worst case punishment from 21 to at most 5 years in a robbery, for example.

Compare to the US, where a robber has little reason to want to take the risk that police won't shoot even if they're unarmed, given how often we hear of police firing even at innocent civilians. Couple that with high sentences and the incremental cost in using firearms to prevent police from catching or killing them is low.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#795
post #750

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A focus on quick resolution at all cost rather than peaceful resolution. The reason for this is simple. It just takes one situation (or at least one believably plausible situation) for people of power to justify a quicker resolution that ultimately gives them more power and meets their KPI goals (more arrests, less bad guys living). In this case, imagine a real armed gunman shoots a hostage or a stray bullet hits a…

I think this political escalation process is itself specific to the US... I think if it happened in the U.K. there would be no such outcry... just tributes to the innocent bystander and a nice funeral. Shit happens. It doesn’t have to always be someone’s fault. Americans seems to be perpetually caught in a victim-aggressor-rescuer drama triangle...

Notably after most UK police shootings - and there's rarely more than one a year, sometimes years without - police ends up having to apologize and face demands for tighter rules, but the opposite rarely happens. There are occasional demands for police to be more regularly armed, but they've not gotten very far.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#796

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is rather ironic that you should write that, when the poster had already clarified his meaning (for those who had not realized it from the context in which it was originally made) and in the very post to which you were replying, no less.

It's not "clarifying" when it's inconsistent with what he first said. And it doesn't make your strawman accusation any less incorrect.

If someone finds that what they wrote did not express precisely what they meant, then making it clear is perfectly reasonable. It happens all the time in reasoned discussions.

You might have had an arguably tendentious point if you had made your comment immediately, but once aswanson had clarified his position, it became a straw man. Rational discussion moves along, and flogging a dead horse that's left the station has no part in it.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#797

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't the movies, cops should never be kicking down the door in a hostage situation. They should be guarding the perimeter and trying to talk to the perpetrator.

I'm curious - how much training do you have in SWAT tactics? Where did you get it from? Assuming it is zero, would you in whatever field you are in accept advice from someone who has zero experience in the field?

Do you think SWAT tactics are designed with minimizing civilian casualties? Or SWAT team casualties?

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#798
post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, so is NCIS then, and they love guns and rule-breaking...

NCIS is a federal investigative and intelligence service--much like MI5, which leads us to Spooks that also has quite a bit of guns and rule breaking.

NCIS? Don't assume anything based on that show; it is a ridiculous farce of nonsense and made-up bullshit. I have family members who watch it religiously, in all its goofy flavors. Not a minute passes without the seemingly serious portrayal of something that would never happen.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#799
post #750
post #685

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This to me seems to be the big difference between US policing and what we're used to in e.g. most European countries: A focus on quick resolution at all cost rather than peaceful resolution. UK police for example tends to respond with overwhelming force, clear the area if possible, and contain their potential adversary, and if possible often wait the situation out. They will use violence if they have to, but it ends…

> A focus on quick resolution at all cost rather than peaceful resolution. The reason for this is simple. It just takes one situation (or at least one believably plausible situation) for people of power to justify a quicker resolution that ultimately gives them more power and meets their KPI goals (more arrests, less bad guys living). In this case, imagine a real armed gunman shoots a hostage or a stray bullet hits a…

You odious, disgusting little man.

Re: LAPD arrests man on suspicion of making deadly swatting call to Wichita police

#800

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course there are scenarios out of our control. In this one particularly the victim walked out of the house and then was shot after he slipped up on one of the commands. Not to blame the victim, but his mistake lead to their over reaction. My point is even us citizens aren't experienced these situations and some guidance could help.

Maybe a brochure once a year giving tips on how to not get murdered by the police?

"Congratulations! You've survived another year without being brutally murdered by the public servants whose generous pensions your city has gone bankrupt to fund! If you want to keep your streak 'alive', here's how you can help these heroes not murder you and your family!"
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