One thing a lot of speechers don't seem to get around here: taking down The Daily Stormer is speech. Also, keeping them up is speech. If you want to regulate CloudFlare so that it has to carry The Daily Stormer, take it up with your congressman. But don't pretend you're neutral in the fight between those who value the constitution and those who would trample over it.
Why We Terminated Daily Stormer
791–800 of 1001 posts
Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer
#792Absolutely correct. He is also effectively saying that since he can and will remove sites he personally doesn't like, that he personally approves of every other site using Cloudflare. The excuse he uses for terminating TDS is an absolute crock; if TDS genuinely did falsely and sincerely claim that Cloudflare supports them, then Prince could and should have simply asked them to remove that claim. It's an outrage that…
> if TDS genuinely did falsely and sincerely claim that Cloudflare supports them, then Prince could and should have simply asked them to remove that claim. I'd go a step further. If cloudflare were a branch of the government like the literal internet police, then it would be immaterial if an entity claimed they supported them. The response would be to simply ignore or refute the claim, not demand that they withdraw i…
I have the right to police protection, but that doesn't mean I get to have a cop patrolling my building 24/7. That's why businesses hire private security.
Likewise, DDoS is a crime and TDS has every right to present a criminal complaint. Cloudflare is just the Internet equivalent of private security.
Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer
#793We take down Al Qaeda terrorist websites all the time because they can be used to radicalize people. Nazis are no different. They are calling for the systematic violent overthrow of the US government and for the extermination of many millions of so called undesirables. This is a terrorist threat. I take this threat very seriously as do many people in the Jewish, Hispanic, and African American community. There are lit…
^^^ The parent comment hits the ball out of the park. The commentary on past posts on HN and elsewhere floors me. It seems one or two things are prevalent: 1. Folks will gladly loan the hangman the rope that he will use to hang you, your family, and your neighbors — all because of "purity of belief" in free speech. Sorry, hate to break it to you, but these illiberal forces are a clear and present danger to this comfo…
I've got to agree. I was quite shocked by some of the comments on earlier threads about this topic.
For example, someone suggested that the German Nazi party was advocating mild socialist reforms very similar to modern social democrats, entirely ignoring "minor details" like that the SA actively beat up people on the streets and spread terror wherever they showed up, that the nazis attempted a Coup d'Etat, and that socialists and communists later went to prison and concentration camps for their political views. Not to speak of killing 5-6 million Jews and being responsible for the death of about 25 million soldiers and 55 million civilians in WW2...
The largest cognitive dissonance is with those people who suggest that jihadist propaganda should be interrupted but Nazi propaganda should be allowed to thrive unconditionally. That sounds very crazy to anyone who knows a little bit about history and can compare orders of magnitudes.
Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer
#794Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's a fallacy because "free speech" is not unlimited - every civilization recognizes its existence is the result of limiting specific freedoms in order to guarantee everyone other freedoms. Germany, among others, outlaw this kind of content because they experienced the end result first-hand. Perhaps the US should learn from them.
> That's a fallacy because "free speech" is not unlimited - every civilization recognizes its existence is the result of limiting specific freedoms in order to guarantee everyone other freedoms. Speech can't limit anyone else's freedom however. > Germany, among others, outlaw this kind of content Leading to multiple wwii games having a different version for Germany and for the rest of the world due to the censorship…
Discriminatory hateful speech absolutely limits the freedom of the discriminated group. If a Jewish person encounters an energized gaggle of Nazis, how do you think they will behave? Not freely.
The freedom to say those discriminatory things also serves no purpose - It's either a call to action, or empty rhetoric... the former is illegal, the latter is pointless.
Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer
#795Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't have any sympathy for the Daily Stormer. I just don't see where this is stopping. What else needs to be taken down? /pol/? Who about Breitbart? Or maybe some 2nd WW Nazi propaganda? Or something from the US civil war? You guys seem to be ok with this very slippery slope being assessed by random private companies accountable to who knows. And then you have the nerve to call us who believes that limits of free…
I'm curious, if you imagine a possible historical situation, let's say a German business owner in the 1930s that took a stance of not offering services to Nazi organizations, does that appear commendable, or bad in the same "slippery slope" way that you apply in the present situation? It seems to me that such a business owner would seem in hindsight to have been acting virtuously, and it seems that businesses that di…
A more realistic historical example than yours (which assumes hindsight): what about the McCarthyism? "If these guys are communist let's not give them jobs, particularly in the medias where they could spread their ideas".
The US liberals kept a pretty sour memory of McCarthyism. But fundamentally it is no different.
Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer
#796Earlier quoted context omitted.
^^^ The parent comment hits the ball out of the park. The commentary on past posts on HN and elsewhere floors me. It seems one or two things are prevalent: 1. Folks will gladly loan the hangman the rope that he will use to hang you, your family, and your neighbors — all because of "purity of belief" in free speech. Sorry, hate to break it to you, but these illiberal forces are a clear and present danger to this comfo…
I don't have any sympathy for the Daily Stormer. I just don't see where this is stopping. What else needs to be taken down? /pol/? Who about Breitbart? Or maybe some 2nd WW Nazi propaganda? Or something from the US civil war? You guys seem to be ok with this very slippery slope being assessed by random private companies accountable to who knows. And then you have the nerve to call us who believes that limits of free…
Congratulations, you've just employed the Sex With Ducks argument. Remember before employing slippery slope arguments to explain why we haven't already fallen down the slope when we banned terrorist websites.
And taking down The Daily Stormer was speech. If you want to regulate that kind of speech, it's your right to say so. But don't pretend you're supporting the First Amendment when you do so.
Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer
#797Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm curious, if you imagine a possible historical situation, let's say a German business owner in the 1930s that took a stance of not offering services to Nazi organizations, does that appear commendable, or bad in the same "slippery slope" way that you apply in the present situation? It seems to me that such a business owner would seem in hindsight to have been acting virtuously, and it seems that businesses that di…
> I'm curious, if you imagine a possible historical situation, let's say a German business owner in the 1930s that took a stance of not offering services to Nazi organizations, does that appear commendable, or bad in the same "slippery slope" way that you apply in the present situation? How about the possible historical situation where a business owners doesn't offer services to the irish, jews, gays, blacks, etc? Be…
> How about the possible historical situation where a business owners doesn't offer services to the irish, jews, gays, blacks, etc?
I'm sorry if someone was born a nazi then.
Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer
#798Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Free speech does not mean a company has to take part in spreading it :). Yes and no, that's why phone companies or internet providers are regulated in a certain fashion, so they can't deny you certain basic services. Imagine you are a controversial figure and all phone companies conspire to deny you a phone number just because they don't like what you say. Or all postal services refuse to deliver your mails. So som…
That would indeed be a problem. But that's not what's happened here. CloudFlare (or any CDN, for that matter) does not provide access. CF terminating their account did not remove their ability to speak. They have many other options. Regulations around ISPs and telecom providers exist specifically because there are often no other options.
You're forgetting the message I'm answering to
> Free speech does not mean a company has to take part in spreading it :).
IS false in practice. Some private companies cannot suppress speech.
Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer
#799The self-proclaimed mission of the alt-right: "Creating a Subculture Which Becomes the Dominant Culture"
https://web.archive.org/web/20170721194819/www.dailystormer....
I wonder if censoring the Alt-Right only reinforces them as subculture via Streisand effect.
Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer
#800Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm surprised at how many people are pretending not to understand what I wrote, seemingly in order to proclaim how anti-Nazi they are. When I was a teenager and first read Chomsky, being anti-censorship was a left-wing thing. I don't think Chomsky has changed his opinion on censorship, or his political persuasion, and neither have I. It's a pity that people who believe in fascistic ideals (censorship and discriminati…
I've also read Chomsky and lived in a country (the UK) with 'incitement to racial hatred' laws for most of my adult life. There are many countries like this. I have a carefully held belief that there should indeed be certain limits on free speech, and these countries get it more or less right. Believe it or not, you can actually be 'left' or 'right' wing (or anything else) and hold more subtle positions than absolute…
> lived in a country (the UK) with 'incitement to racial hatred' laws for most of my adult life
Do you trust GCHQ?