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A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

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Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#791

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To make it work you'd have to take whatever the amount is and extract it from all other government benefit programs. You get $700 / month from the government for basic income. Your social security, welfare, unemployment, disability, etc is reduced by $700 / month. Reducing all of those programs by the first $700 would effectively gut each of them enough to finally make some reforms without inducing panic in everyone…

> If you were to implement the Fair Tax, which includes a stipend for basic needs, you'd get bipartisan support as well. No, you wouldn't. Flat tax proposals and national sales tax proposals like the "FairTax", have support almost exclusively on the right (and each particular such proposal has minority support on the right.) You won't get bipartisan support for any of them.

I've noticed an increasing number of friends who are very left leaning, promoting the Fair Tax lately.

Most of the issue with support for Fair Tax is that it's enough of an overhaul that people believe it to be an unrealistic pipe dream, which is may well be.

One of the big perks of the Fair Tax is that it makes it easier for people to pay off debt and would actually encourage it. That gets a lot of support from many different angles.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#792

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the state will literally show up with police and guns if I went out into the mountains and lived off the land Why? Is it someone else's land that you're trespassing on, using up their resources, hunting their animals, etc? Shall all of us who don't feel fulfilled do the same thing as you propose? When you hurt yourself and get an infection, are you going to crawl back out of the woods and expect there to still be oth…

> Why? Is it someone else's land that you're trespassing on, using up their resources, hunting their animals, etc? Yeah. Just about every bit of land is owned by someone. In order to have my own land to live off of I need to produce some income to pay property taxes, lest the state confiscate it from me.

And it's not a question of 1% owning "too much", either. A hunter-gatherer life is hideously inefficient. There isn't enough land on Earth to support even a small fraction of the population living this way.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#793

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I meant the STEM work as an example (hence the eg.) -- sorry if I wasn't more clear. You could just as easily substitute any "skilled" profession -- medicine, etc. All work can certainly be fulfilling, but more because of the reasons I described (it's a means to an end) than the reasons you're describing. Certainly, people shouldn't be forced to take particularly degrading jobs when they don't want to in order to sur…

> It's impossible that there are enough people in the world passionate about garbage collection -- allocated perfectly across the correct geographic regions, mind you -- to fill all of the available positions. And you base this claim on what?

It's just my opinion, and I have no factual basis. It's an appeal to common sense, but I stand by it nonetheless.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#794
post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> fewer working mothers can find child care, fewer laborers to mow your lawn, fewer nurses, fewer teachers, etc. First of all, even if the people in positions like this were only working for sustenance and UBI provides it for them, it doesn't mean some wouldn't want to continue working to make even MORE money. UBI is a baseline, not welfare. If previously a lawn mowing job was only enough for rent and food, maybe now…

Your arguments are interesting, but they hold only in systems with artificial inflation controls. UBI increases the amount of money in the economy, which has the same effect as simply printing more, thus the value (scarcity) of the money decreases. A poor mother without UBI will be a poor mother with UBI because costs will simply go up, something you acknowledge. As costs for services go up, costs of products go up a…

Labor should get substantially cheaper though. As it stands, people will only accept a job if it covers all their living expenses. Even if you offer to pay enough for half their bills, they'll keep looking for a job that can pay all their bills. With most of their expenses covered by the government, they would be willing to work for a lot less money than before - assuming they're willing to work at all.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#795
post #751

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If accounting balanced to 0 means no money is created Accounting does balance to zero. Debt and money are added, and they sum to zero. Proof: Let bank start at 0 (or pick any value). Bank receives X dollars from entity A. Now bank has X dollars in reserves and owes entity A exactly X dollars, so net position of bank is zero (X dollars in reserves - X dollars owed = 0). A started with X, gave it to the bank, and the…

Accounting does balance to zero. That doesn't negate the fact that money has been created in the system. Let me pose the question again. Your statement is since accounting balanced to 0, no money has been created. In that case, FOMC's account balance is also net zero when buying treasury or selling treasury. Therefore FOMC doesn't create or destroy money. So what is the purpose of FOMC again? Edit: Instead of arguing…

>Your statement is since accounting balanced to 0, no money has been created

No. Nowhere have I written "no money". You have written it a few times. I have stated that the money is balanced by a matching debt. You also keep mixing fractional reserve and central bank purchases. These are entirely different things.

And FOMC is also zero sum - the dollars they inject are backed by debts they hold.

>look up Money creation by the commercial banks in the wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_creation

Yes, I am quite aware of this, even having been involved in many discussions and papers on exogenous vs endogenous money. If you want to really blow your mind search those terms and read academic papers on them.

What you seem to not understand is that the money is offset by matching debt. Your link states this in the first paragraph: "A central bank may introduce new money into the economy (termed "expansionary monetary policy", or "money printing" by detractors) by purchasing financial assets or lending money to financial institutions"

The Fed traditionally purchases debt to put more current into play. As more dollars are in the economy, the Fed carries more debt, the same as any bank when it loans out deposits. The difference is the Fed can purchase as much as it wants, but the sum is still zero.

Look: the fed has a balance sheet. Here are many snapshots of it [1]. It sums to zero. Take the last one from March, 2016 [2]. Look at page 6, Table 1. There is a line titled "Federal Reserve Notes in circulation". It is 1385B. There are other assets and debts. They are summed. The sum is zero.

Next - this has zero to do with fractional reserve, since you could have either without the other. We (and most of the world) had fractional reserve before we had a central bank.

So yes, there is more money. There is also matching debt. This is what I have stated since the beginning. You don't seem willing to note that the debt matches the money in every case, whether it's Joe loaning Bob, it's a bank and fractional reserve, or it's a central bank purchasing assets. The central bank has unlimited reserves, is the issuer of currency, and can take on unlimited debt.

If it helps you think clearly, assume the central bank has 20 quadrillion dollars. They decide to add X dollars to the economy, so they buy X in assets. Now they have 20Q - X in cash, X in assets, we have -X in assets, X in cash.

Where the economy increases is when the people buy goods (say Treasuries), and their value in dollars goes up through market pricing, then they get sold to the Fed. The Fed didn't add the value, market pricing did. The Fed simply traded some of it's (unlimited) reserves for assets.

This is also why the Fed traditionally purchases at open market prices - it helps them match inflation since the market, not the Fed, decides prices.

So - are you still claiming all these stages are not zero sum? If so, please detail which step is not zero sum.

[1] https://www.federalreserve.gov/monetarypolicy/quarterly-bala...

[2] https://www.federalreserve.gov/monetarypolicy/files/quarterl...

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#796

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poster is crazy to think liberals will EVER support a hugely regressive tax scheme. Consumption taxes destroy the middle class by acting as vehicle to transport wealth from the middle to the ultrawealthy, which makes it surprising that people continue to suggest it. Now perhaps a consumption tax combined with a large capital gains tax and inheritance tax -- to keep taxes going in the oligarchs economy AND the regular…

>Poster is crazy to think liberals will EVER support a hugely regressive tax scheme. I just want to make one glib comment here about liberals and regressive taxes. The Northeast is generally thought of as the most liberal part of America (aside from coastal California maybe). So why is it that I've seen far more toll roads and bridges there than in any "red state"? I think some liberals make some good points about re…

>The Northeast is generally thought of as the most liberal part of America (aside from coastal California maybe).

I sure don't think of the northeast that way. I see it as fairly conservative both in politics and business. One data point is that it wasn't anywhere in the northeast that first legalized weed. It was Colorado and Washington, followed by Oregon and Alaska. Another data point is that people wear jeans or shorts at work in Silicon Valley (or Socal, Oregon, Colorado, etc) whereas they're far more likely to be required to wear suits in the north east.

The northeast is very urban, which has some overlapping effects with but is still very different from actually being liberal. Change is mostly driven by the west. It's just that the change reaches the dense cities of the northeast more quickly than the rural areas in between.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#797

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poster is crazy to think liberals will EVER support a hugely regressive tax scheme. Consumption taxes destroy the middle class by acting as vehicle to transport wealth from the middle to the ultrawealthy, which makes it surprising that people continue to suggest it. Now perhaps a consumption tax combined with a large capital gains tax and inheritance tax -- to keep taxes going in the oligarchs economy AND the regular…

>Poster is crazy to think liberals will EVER support a hugely regressive tax scheme. I just want to make one glib comment here about liberals and regressive taxes. The Northeast is generally thought of as the most liberal part of America (aside from coastal California maybe). So why is it that I've seen far more toll roads and bridges there than in any "red state"? I think some liberals make some good points about re…

Could you compare Toll Roads and Population Density?

Then, when you realize that toll roads are correlated with population density, perhaps you could realize that toll roads are then only also correlated with politics of state, not caused by them.

For example: If liberals loved toll roads, then California, Oregon and Washington would be full of them. But only the NorthEast is, right?

So your hypothesis falls apart here anyway.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#798
post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't you assuming that leisure time is worthless there? Suppose country A consists of 99 peasants and 1 plutocrat. The peasants work full-time and the plutocrat consumes their entire economic output living a life of fabulous luxury. Country B consists of 100 people who work part-time and live simple lives that they can afford. Country A produces more goods and services and has a higher GDP than country B - let's sa…

In some ways, yes, country A2 is better off. I personally would much rather work hard and take vacations by airplane to experience other parts of the planet than to work half as hard and have my only leisure options be within a walking/biking radius of where I was born, lived, and died.

If you don't work as hard you have time to go by bike whereever you want - your biking radius is anything with solid land.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#799

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're going to have a hard time eliminating Social Security; the voters won't stand for it. They paid into it, so it seems unfair for them to not get paid back out of it. What would work, I think, might be a phase-out: for anyone who's getting less in SS payments than the UBI, just replace their SS with UBI. For everyone making more, they don't get a UBI, they just keep drawing SS. (Or, you could say they ge…

I agree with you 100% about the lack of political viability. But I also think a system that requires taxpayers to fund more than basic living expenses for non-taxpayers is unjust. Everyone should be able to stay warm and dry, safe and clean, with a soft bed and a healthy diet. Anything beyond that is luxury. In particular: - Just because you don't have enough income to pay your big mortgage doesn't mean others should…

>- Just because you don't have enough income to pay your big mortgage doesn't mean others should have to pay so you can live in a massive house.

Yes, they should. This is the way it is right now. That's how unemployment insurance works: you pay into it as you work, and then draw from it when you're unemployed. (Of course, a lot of people don't bother because it's a huge hassle, but that's beside the point.)

Do you also think that someone who has full insurance on their $90,000 Mercedes shouldn't get a full payout when someone crashes into it?

I do think that unemployment insurance (since it's a government program and not optional) should be phased out under UBI. But "phased out" is the key phrase here, just as with SSI.

>- Likewise, many hardworking people take a roommate to save money.

>Should they have to pay for other people to live more extravagantly? There is nothing unhealthy or unsafe (in general) about sleeping in the same room with another person, or turning a room that fits 2 people into two smaller rooms.

This is illegal. Most municipalities have codes which prevent more people from living in a place than a certain number, based on the bedrooms (usually 1 per bedroom, except with kids). And yes, I think asking people to have roommates (in the same bedroom) is going too far. Housing is this country is cheap: it's cheaply constructed, with cheap materials, and land is plentiful outside of downtown metro areas. There is absolutely no reason for rents to be as high as they are. Instead of trying to force people into unsafe living situations with strangers, the government needs to fix the housing problem. They're not going to do that as long as people like Hillary are in bed with Wall Street and allow speculation on residential real estate.

>I think in an average cost-of-living town in the US, you need 300 to 350 to rent a room (all to yourself!), 250 for groceries, soap, razor blades, etc. That leaves 100 or 150 to get around. Certainly not enough for a car or taxi rides.

This is what I'm proposing. If that's enough for someone to get by in an average location in the US, that's what the UBI should be set at. And $150/month for a car is actually doable: you can get a pretty decent used car for $5k, and if you're mechanically handy (buy tools at Harbor Freight) you can maintain it yourself for next to nothing, and then as long as your commute is short, and with liability-only insurance, the monthly cost for your transportation should be in that range, even better once you get the vehicle paid off (which you can do by doing some extra work for more money, then after it's paid off you can relax and not work as much or at all). But really, affording a car shouldn't even necessarily be part of it (though as I pointed out, if you're frugal and able to do your own maintenance, it's not that expensive; insurance might blow the budget though). There is public transit in places (though it mostly sucks and needs serious revamping; see SkyTran), and people at the minimum could just get by with a bicycle.

The whole point of UBI is so people can get by and not have major financial stress; it literally kills people, by shortening their lifespans. Sticking them in a room with some stranger and not allowing them any privacy at all is not the answer. So the UBI should be set so that they can afford to rent a room (the whole room), buy groceries, and have a little extra (maybe riding a bicycle) so they don't feel completely miserable, and then can go seek employment as they wish for more money.

I do think unemployment insurance and SSI should both be phased out, and maybe unemployment insurance can be a private matter instead, and I also think universal healthcare needs to be instituted. I also think the UBI should be the same for everyone; it's too complicated otherwise, and I don't think people who want to live in Manhattan or other high-rent areas should be given that luxury and funded by the rest of us (otherwise, we'll all move to high-rent locations). People living in high-rent places like that now with government benefits will have to move under UBI; too bad. If $700/month is enough to make all this work, then great, let's set it at $700/month.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#800

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you 100% about the lack of political viability. But I also think a system that requires taxpayers to fund more than basic living expenses for non-taxpayers is unjust. Everyone should be able to stay warm and dry, safe and clean, with a soft bed and a healthy diet. Anything beyond that is luxury. In particular: - Just because you don't have enough income to pay your big mortgage doesn't mean others should…

> Everyone should be able to stay warm and dry, safe and clean, with a soft bed and a healthy diet. Anything beyond that is luxury. The definition of "luxury" changes over time. Today, you should include internet access in the list of basic needs since it is needed for many forms of social interaction.

Here again is another place where we need a lot more government regulation. People who don't work should not be getting $100/month or whatever for internet access. Instead, they should be able to afford a $15/month plan. Over in Europe, they have stuff like that, because they have real regulation, so internet service is much, much cheaper (of course, their internet and telecom companies aren't as profitable as ours; boo hoo). We need to do the same thing here.
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