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Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

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Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#781

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet even without definitions you are typing words and I am reading them and we're having a conversation here, so let's not go pretend-meta here. The right level of offensive is the level that, given all viewpoints, does the most to benefit to society as a whole. You're a rich straight white guy whose only discomfort over this comes down to not being able to say whatever you damn well want whenever you damn well pleas…

> You're a rich straight white guy Could you be any more offensive and dismissive? What difference does his cultural background have when discussing the name of a piece of software? Oh, wait, everything right? Cisgendered, rich white men are the enemy! If you want, think of 'bro' as a shortened version of 'brochure'. Is it less offensive to you now?

When somebody starts victim-shaming people it's very relevant to bring up the fact that they are in a social position where they have the least possible real-world experience with the negative side of the issues they're being dismissive about.

But yeah; the tone argument. Good to see that brought up. Going through your comment history is literally Derailment Bingo gold. I'm sure paul is happy to know that his bro's still have his back. ;)

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#782
post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not feeling oppressed. The problem isn't me feeling oppressed, it's other people feeling oppressed. Poor choice of language can set up an exclusionary environment. To you, this may be funny. To me, your accusation of humorlessness reminds me of people who engage in sexually harassing "jokes" in the workplace, and then try to get away with it by using "humor" as an excuse. You aren't the one who gets to decide whe…

I wonder how many female programmers actually feel oppressed by this?

I doubt many do. The ones who would feel oppressed probably just avoid the field. Which is not an optimal outcome, in case that wasn't obvious.

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#783

My experience is this: Some time ago, I wrote a post about CoffeeScript. As you may know, CoffeeScript is a whitespace-specific programming language. I am black, and there is a small cultural wiggle-room when it comes to black people making fun of colour-based cultural issues. So I thought I could get away with calling my post "White Power." The response was immediate and scathing. Regardless of whether I was persona…

Oh oh! Did you really just say "A few people continued to RAG me about it"? I know you think you are very language sensitive and not a mysoginst. But to use the word RAG! http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=rag So how do you plan to repent! First beg for forgiveness until everyone agrees you have begged enough. Second make some pledge for the future. Of course you will never use that word again but how abo…

I don't think this is accurate, in British english at least. Dictionary.com shows the etymology as unknown in the sense of to scold or to tease, but it gives the date as 1790 to 1800. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rag?s=t

It's usage as a synonym for tampon is show in word usage as dating from the 1930s.

I don't think it's remotely fair to assume it could be taking in the above context as derogatory towards women.

So how do you plan to repent? ;)

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#784
post #710

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever considered the idea that your apparent dislike towards all things and people described as "feminist" suggests that you have, over the course of your seemingly-angry life, adopted a huge amount of misogynistic perspectives on things? Because, hate to break it to you, but you were born a feminist. Everyone is. Every person that has ever lived on planet Earth was born a feminist. Because the idea that wome…

> Because, hate to break it to you, but you were born a feminist. Everyone is. Every person that has ever lived on planet Earth was born a feminist. I'm sensing some religious overtones... Everyone is a born into this world an innocent child, but the world is not run by God. But everyone wants to reconnect with God. > Every person that has ever lived on planet Earth was born a feminist. Because the idea that women ar…

If you are looking for a more neutral definition, I think anti-sexism is acceptable.

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#785

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's difficult for me to see how you read my post as suggesting that the awesome women I know (or women in general) are emotionally fragile. I really tried to go out of my way to avoid giving that impression; that's why I called them "unflappable", among many other things. I do understand the point you're aiming for here. But when the premise of your objection is so explicitly at odds with my actual words, it might b…

I'll attempt to explain the point I think overgard is making in a little more detail: There are many ways to signal not-belonging. For example, conversations like this one send a signal of not belonging to people who are culturally lower-middle class (hypersensitive political correctness is a social signal of upper-middle class liberal types). I imagine a similar signal is sent to brogrammers. It also sends a signal…

I can very much relate to the feeling of being "bullied" by "politically correct sorts" as you put it -- it's taken me a while to become confident enough in my own positions on the matter to not let the people who (in my opinion) go too far get to me (like some of the things mentioned in your link, which was a great read; thanks for that).

But that said, I think this argument (paraphrased: "This conversation excludes me, how is that better?") ultimately boils down to the same kind of protest that an anti-gay person often makes as a last resort: "you preach tolerance, why can't you be tolerant to my anti-gay point of view?" (Just to be clear, I am not calling anyone here anti-gay or anti-woman, it's just an analogy, which I will explain).

The overriding concern is that we take seriously people's experiences about what makes them feel excluded or unwelcome (and not just women). In other words, it's important that we are not dismissive of people's feelings or experiences. But the one thing we must be dismissive of is people's efforts to justify dismissiveness.

For anyone who thinks that being exclusive is no big deal, it is important that we stand up and be clear that it is important, because that's the only way for the group as a whole to truly be welcoming to the out-groups. Just as we must stand up to overt anti-gay intolerance, we must stand up to more subtle signaling when it is common and pervasive.

I don't believe that the people who made this program had any bad intentions, and I'm not meaning in any way to criticize or judge them. If they are made aware of the issue and don't think it matters at first, I can still find compassion because it can take a while to really become aware of why this is important. But even in feeling compassionate, it is still important that those of us who have come to appreciate this issue stand up and say why we think actions like this are harmful.

One final thought: communication "in the large" has different standards than communication with close friends or family. There would be nothing wrong with a joke like this between good friends or family, for several reasons:

1. within a close friend/family group, everyone is already part of the in-group

2. within a close friend/family group, mutual concern for each other is already established, and a person who has concerns has ways of voicing them and a reasonable expectation that those concerns will be taken seriously.

3. people within a close friend/family group know each other well enough to know how certain comments are intended; the potential for misinterpreting things is much lower.

Some of the things my close friends joke around about could sound horrifying and totally inappropriate to people outside our group, but all of us know what we mean by it and are cool with it. As long as we keep that to ourselves it doesn't matter. But with messaging that will reach a large group of people, it's a totally different story.

This is much longer than I intended or anticipated, sorry about that.

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#786

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're a rich straight white guy Could you be any more offensive and dismissive? What difference does his cultural background have when discussing the name of a piece of software? Oh, wait, everything right? Cisgendered, rich white men are the enemy! If you want, think of 'bro' as a shortened version of 'brochure'. Is it less offensive to you now?

When somebody starts victim-shaming people it's very relevant to bring up the fact that they are in a social position where they have the least possible real-world experience with the negative side of the issues they're being dismissive about. But yeah; the tone argument. Good to see that brought up. Going through your comment history is literally Derailment Bingo gold. I'm sure paul is happy to know that his bro's s…

"Victim shaming", "Privilege", "Tone argument", "Derailment".

Hope you're enjoying all that kool aid, bro. :)

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#787

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never been near a frat or anything related to an American college and I lots of my female and male friends use the word 'bro' to greet/reference each other. It's terrible that you've had such a shitty life, but it'd be great if you didn't push your stupid 'I'm offended by everything' agenda down everyones throat.

It'd be great if you could demonstrate actual compassion and understanding of other human beings instead of pushing your stupid "I should be able to say whatever I want without social consequences" agenda down everyone's throat.

I've got plenty of compassion and understanding, thanks.

Using your logic, why don't we just get rid of the word 'frat' while we're at it, since you've had such a bad experience with people associated with them. Do you see the slippery slope you're on here?

I'm glad we live in a society where everything isn't geared to appease people like you. Those that I do have compassion for are people with real issues, not feigned concern over the name of an application you had nothing to do with being a word that might trigger a panic attack because you got your ass beat in college.

Maybe you should try therapy for that.

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#788

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Woman are not in tech because we fail at the high school education phase: we need to do better at encouraging women to study STEM subjects at university. I don't believe the current environment at tech companies is the problem. If it is a rather male dominated culture that is the effect, not the cause.

Wrong. Yes, there is a pipeline problem; however, women also leave STEM fields at more than twice the rate men do.[0] And when we do, the reasons we cite include the fact that it's a boys' club, as well as outright harassment. [0]: (This is an overview, but also cites some actual peer-reviewed studies) http://www.forbes.com/2010/06/08/science-engineering-gender-...

Well, at the small software companies I know there are many (e.g. 20x) more male software engineers than female and the problem is 100% due to the pipeline (I'm not aware of any female engineer having left). In my experience female candidates also receive more offers than comparable male candidates, which is great and again not indicative of a cultural cause of the unequal workplace proportions.

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#789

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It'd be great if you could demonstrate actual compassion and understanding of other human beings instead of pushing your stupid "I should be able to say whatever I want without social consequences" agenda down everyone's throat.

I've got plenty of compassion and understanding, thanks. Using your logic, why don't we just get rid of the word 'frat' while we're at it, since you've had such a bad experience with people associated with them. Do you see the slippery slope you're on here? I'm glad we live in a society where everything isn't geared to appease people like you. Those that I do have compassion for are people with real issues, not feign…

> I've got plenty of compassion and understanding, thanks.

Only for yourself.

> Maybe you should try therapy for that.

Maybe you should try not being an asshole.

By the way, your comments have numerous factual errors. You've assumed a great deal about my life rather than seeking actual understanding of it. Amusingly, even if your assumptions were correct, it would just make you an even bigger asshole.

Re: Bro pages: like man pages, but with examples only

#790
post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Exclusionary behaviour stands between me and my dream, and I will crush it by any means necessary. I like your sentiment, but I have a hard time imagining women out there who feel excluded by things like the name of a software package. I would love to see more brains in software, but I don't think word play is a major barrier. I'm willing to be proven wrong, but I would like to hear from first hand sources -- not a…

You rang? I normally avoid commenting on crap like this because people like you are a pain to talk to, but since you seem to want to take advantage of me not engaging with people like you to argue that I don't exist... hi, I exist. Now please stop it with that terrible argument.

The correlation between people with attitude problems and those who feel excluded is surprisingly strong. Thanks for your input!
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