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Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

paolino.me

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Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#781

Post by 1718627440 »

selfmodruntime wrote: post #769
1718627440 wrote: post #752

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah that is the idea which materialized in getting colonies at the turn of the previous century and in the actions of the third empire. I don't think that sentiment is shared by a sizable population anymore.

German arrogance, namely that we‘re doing it best and that our way is the only way, is still alive and kicking.

Maybe, but also every past government has started with the promise of cutting bureaucracy down. One of the point is to improve the situation for startups. So this is a well-known issue and the idea that this is already the optimum is not believed in the general population.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#782

Post by procaryote »

lazyasciiart wrote: post #677
procaryote wrote: post #554

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's only a gain if you sell. Selling a company and paying tax on the profit in tax is a completely different proposition from paying tax on hypothetical profit you haven't made (and might never make) just because you want to move.

That's what unrealized means. Gains you haven't got because you haven't sold.

and if we started taxing them across the board, no one would dare hold stock

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#783

Post by pshirshov »

markvdb wrote: post #542
pshirshov wrote: post #271

Well, create a company in Ireland. 5 days, €300 and you can send your invoices.

...and move to Ireland.

Not necessarily. You need a local director and to be physically present in the country like once per year for board meetings.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#784

Post by miroljub »

jijijijij wrote: post #763
miroljub wrote: post #743

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Start capital is not the only capital you need. UG forces you to pay 3-4.000€ per year on tax compliance. LLC costs 200-300$. > Not sure you are arguing in good faith. You are the one completely ignoring the running costs of UG (the same or bigger than GmbH) just to make UG look better than it really is. Now, please tell who is not arguing in good faith?

> UG forces you to pay 3-4.000€ per year on tax compliance. Even in if that was true, the 25k€ difference remains (since the tax overhead is identical). Hardly what people would consider "a bit". Let's say the start capital is 3k€ for the UG and respectively 28k€ for the GmbH. That's almost a magnitude difference. And usually taxes become a challenge only when there is anything to tax or book. Are you "forced" to hav…

> And usually taxes become a challenge only when there is anything to tax or book.

Not in Germany. Having a GmbH or UG is enough.

> Are you "forced" to have a Steuerberater without revenue?

Yes, and that costs quite a bit.

I was arguing that the cost of running a “cheap” UG is closer to the cost of running GmbH than running a LLC.

And these 25k, although a big burden, are not costs or fees. Once paid they are part of company balance which you can use to pay company expenses.

The real costs are running costs, and those are very close for UG and GmbH.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#785

Post by dns_snek »

WarmWash wrote: post #404
dns_snek wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> does the state have a fair claim to €5B of it when the company at most with the most generous possible estimate (and then double it for good measure) used €50M of state services? Yes, it does. Quite simply because that's the law, and it's morally right (in principle) because if your business fails then you don't get a bill for 50 million. If "winners" only paid their exact share then these services wouldn't exist.

I explicitly stated (twice) they would (and should) pay more then their exact share. The real cost would likely be in the neighborhood of $500k too (20 SWEs traveling to work doesn't incur much cost, plus the 21/population cost of mainstay services (police, fire, government misc/infra)), never mind the workers are paying taxes on their income too. So $50m would cover their true societal cost (I'll multiply it by 10 f…

> Its extremely difficult to build a clearly logical structure where a company that made a wildly successful product needs to hand half the value to the government.

I think it's rather simple. If they don't do that, does the house of cards that we call a society collapse?

> It's very easy to do if we hand wave with ambiguous terms...

It's equally easy to be dismissive about the cost of running a stable society. If you want poor people to pick up your 5 billion euro tab then you're never going to make those 10 billion to begin with because people won't have the money to afford whatever it is that you're selling.

I've yet to hear a coherent argument on how you think you can pay 99% less in taxes and achieve the same outcomes? It's nothing but magical thinking. You want to pay 99% less and you want poor people to pay (a lot) more.

Do you think poor people can afford to pay more? Do you not care? Don't you see that if you do that they'll violently overthrow the entire system that allowed you to become a multi-billionaire?

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#787

Post by miroljub »

victorbjorklund wrote: post #619
miroljub wrote: post #483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No we don't. UG is still a GmbH bureaucratic monster which a bit less start capital. You still need to follow all taxation rules like GmbH, which costs you few more thousands per year (Bilanzeirung, Steuerberater, Abschluss, ...) just to be legaly compliant. American LLC taxation is as simple as or even simpler than Anlage EÜR. And you don't need a tax advisor to do it.

That’s what they said? That UG solves the issue of having to have a start capital.

No, they are trying to sell UG as an equivalent to LLC, which it is clearly not.

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#788

Post by jijijijij »

miroljub wrote: post #784
jijijijij wrote: post #763

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> UG forces you to pay 3-4.000€ per year on tax compliance. Even in if that was true, the 25k€ difference remains (since the tax overhead is identical). Hardly what people would consider "a bit". Let's say the start capital is 3k€ for the UG and respectively 28k€ for the GmbH. That's almost a magnitude difference. And usually taxes become a challenge only when there is anything to tax or book. Are you "forced" to hav…

> And usually taxes become a challenge only when there is anything to tax or book. Not in Germany. Having a GmbH or UG is enough. > Are you "forced" to have a Steuerberater without revenue? Yes, and that costs quite a bit. I was arguing that the cost of running a “cheap” UG is closer to the cost of running GmbH than running a LLC. And these 25k, although a big burden, are not costs or fees. Once paid they are part of…

> I was arguing that the cost of running a “cheap” UG is closer to the cost of running GmbH than running a LLC.

Then maybe you should have said that instead of talking about start capital... The mere difference between UG and GmbH is the start capital, so what's your expectation?

Re: Founding a company in Germany: €9600, 152 days and I still can't send an invoice

#789

Post by miroljub »

jijijijij wrote: post #788
miroljub wrote: post #784

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And usually taxes become a challenge only when there is anything to tax or book. Not in Germany. Having a GmbH or UG is enough. > Are you "forced" to have a Steuerberater without revenue? Yes, and that costs quite a bit. I was arguing that the cost of running a “cheap” UG is closer to the cost of running GmbH than running a LLC. And these 25k, although a big burden, are not costs or fees. Once paid they are part of…

> I was arguing that the cost of running a “cheap” UG is closer to the cost of running GmbH than running a LLC. Then maybe you should have said that instead of talking about start capital... The mere difference between UG and GmbH is the start capital, so what's your expectation?

> Then maybe you should have said that instead of talking about start capital... The mere difference between UG and GmbH is the start capital, so what's your expectation?

People were selling us UG as an LLC equivalent. I was just pointing out it's not. There's no LLC or Ltd. equivalent in Germany.

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