Earlier quoted context omitted.
Look at how the billionaires are talking about AI: Their clear, unambiguous goal is basically to replace all white collar "knowledge" jobs. And there's currently nothing regulatory that's stopping them--they just need to wait for the state of the art to improve. Once AI is "good enough" if it ever is, they won't even think twice about 45% unemployment. What are we unemployed workers going to do about it? There's no e…
I get that it is popular to hate billionaires these days, but realistically, they did not get to be billionaires by being stupid. It runs directly counter to their own interests to induce anything like 45% unemployment. They will get poorer, the world they live in right along with the rest of us will get noticeably shittier, etc. More likely they figure out what to do with a bunch of idle talent. Or the coming genera…
Software engineering may no longer be a lifetime career
781–790 of 809 posts
Re: Software engineering may no longer be a lifetime career
#782Earlier quoted context omitted.
I work with people who generate solutions without really looking at what was produced (group A). They click around the app or run some tests and decide if they're content with the result, then ship it. You can see Claude's fingerprints all over the PR and it's safe to assume they didn't change much of anything. Then I have coworkers who work through the problems, build harnesses to test the changes and verify results…
Bro group B might as well write the code themselves. this is getting silly
There are large yet trivially generated change sets that you can trust an LLM to do, and review easily. There are large errors LLMs are incredible at parsing and inferring causes from. There are unstructured logs you can feed into an LLM and get meaningful information out of. You can save yourself a tremendous amount of time if you know when to use them.
Then there are test and analysis harnesses, scripts for performing rudimentary tasks, having them fetch data from disparate sources and synthesizing them in one place. This is all extremely helpful.
I was skeptical for a long time, but it's a significant multiplier now. I write a lot of code myself still, I review everything, but so much of what the LLM does is supplementary to the outputs. They evaluate, unblock, inform, and triage well enough and so ridiculously quickly that being correct even 70% of the time is still useful. It doesn't take much guidance and guard railing to get them well above that metric.
Re: Software engineering may no longer be a lifetime career
#783Earlier quoted context omitted.
> is exactly how We don't know that. It seems like great hubris to declare we know how the human brain works. You are asking me to explain how we know things and then telling me we've already figured it out in the same breath, and that's hilarious. It doesn't take massive amounts of language data to train a baby human. It is almost entirely just: "Look. Here's a cat. Can you say cat? Cats go meow." "Over here, your a…
We do mostly know how the brain works at this level of detail, and it is akin to Principal Component Analysis. There are only so many ways it could work, unless you believe in dualism. My question was rhetorical. All you've described with the other stuff is a "multi-modal" model (and ignoring all of the "biological pre-training" that took place through millennia of evolution). The interesting (and perhaps surprising…
"Neural Networks" are the Omegaverse of Computing and we are all poorer for it. I could elaborate, but I'm exhausted and depressed right now. The map is not the territory. The broken analogy is almost never the real thing. A stopped clock is right thousands of times per year if you just keep collecting as much data as you can.
Re: Software engineering may no longer be a lifetime career
#784Earlier quoted context omitted.
Because compilers are only deterministic when using ahead of time compilation, without profiling data, and always the same set of compiler flags. Introduce dynamic compilation, profiling data, optimization passes, multiple implementations, ML driven heuristics, and getting deterministic Assembly output from a compiler starts to get harder to achieve.
You are right about that but that's talking about what you generate but not what the output does. My point is that the compilers still designed to preserve semantic equivalence. semantic equivalence makes sense here because there are semantics well defined for both input and output. That bit is supposed to be deterministic. If something breaks that that is a bug. I just don't think comparing with compilers is a good…
Re: Software engineering may no longer be a lifetime career
#785As a solo founder, I've shipped a complete multi-tenant SaaS product: auth, multi-tenancy, webhooks, multiple programming languages, all done via an agent. Did the job go away? Nope. It got reduced to its non-delegable core: choosing what to build, designing the software architecture, reading through all diffs generated by the agent.
These are the kinds of skills that compound; engineers who have developed a holistic and deep understanding of how systems work (instead of just pattern-matching solutions) are increasingly in demand, not the other way around. An agent increases the surface area much quicker, thus rewarding depth.
What's threatened here is the career that wasn't really "engineering" in the first place but was "producing output under supervision." That job used to exist everywhere: engineers shipping code they didn't understand, reviewing PRs without thinking about them. AI can do that job cheaper.
Engineers who ask "will AI replace my job?" are often asking the wrong question. The question should be: "Do I have enough understanding of my systems to direct something smarter than me?"
Re: Software engineering may no longer be a lifetime career
#786Earlier quoted context omitted.
Someday people are going to get tired of "programming in English" with prompts, getting inaccurate output, etc and someone is going to invent a higher level kind of CODE that allows the user to directly specify the actions the computer should take to solve the problem. Later someone will invent a kind of tooling that COMPILES these CODES into a runnable thing skipping the prompt part all together. It might be called…
Programming is moving to programming by stated and understood intent , rather than syntax. Maybe contracts/legalese, but definitely not compilable code. Sure, some people will compile code, and more than some will be reading generated code, but that will be increasingly exceptional.
I'm imagining some "AI Native Intermediate Representation" where the prompt says "Give me a function that takes an array of strings and returns that array sorted", the real code that runs in the end is the actual C code, and the representation might be something low complexity but still human readable:
func sortArray( input) -> input.order.asc;
Not quite a prompt, certainly not runnable code but a higher level hybrid that is human readable AND can be compiled into actual C code. At some point someone is going to have to debug something and nobody will be able to read assembly/real code anymore.
It just seems to me in the whole "AI WRITES MY CODE" world that nobody is really thinking about debugging and maintenance. What do we just commit the prompt we built the program with to Git and call it a day? What about when we need to modify the system? Do we make a prompt to modify? Do we modify the original prompt?
AI so far is probabilistic, and that can certainly be dealt with via various workarounds, and theres currently no reason to think todays stuff would even generate the same code twice. I can't shake the idea theres a step missing in everyone saying "AI will write all our code now".
Its all a hack until a PHD writes a paper, then it becomes a technique.
Edit: Funny story - this morning Im up early to write a program of low complexity but still somewhat rigorous. Let me see if I can think up a prompt that I might use:
I need a program invoked with a main. We'll use this as a scaffolding to extend as the requirements materialize and constraints emerge. It will generate valid trading days for ES index futures where contract months are HMUZ. For each contract it will start with the last day of trading as defined by the contract specification located at (www.cmegroup.com/contracts/ES) and build and build an array consisting of 4 calendar months of those dates starting back from the last day of the contract. This collection will be sorted in ascending order by date where by the 0 element in the array is the earliest trading date.
^^ So this here is just my intermediate step. Im not even sure this is how I want to go forward with it but this approach is just the first way I can conceive of to get the job started. From here I'll read the output and figure how to add in the useful things I need to make it actually perform the intended function beyond what this prompt tells it to do. I cant even imagine how I might specify the final product I need in English. Id be writing a giant prompt for everything I need built and code would be so much faster to write and think in. Describing my stated intent in all this in English sounds like ... murder. And we all know that prompt I just made up sitting here is both a decent start at a prompt AND wholly inadequate and will produce absolutely useless garbage.
Re: Software engineering may no longer be a lifetime career
#787Earlier quoted context omitted.
I feel like this subthread is full of passive acceptance of defeat. How many years did it take for HN to go from “worker unions bad because I make a lot of money” to “Of course there is a capitalist/worker war going on and in fact the capitalists might become technology-assisted gods”? I guess we’re all vulgar marxists when we think it’s too late to fight back. Where did the can-do hustler attitude go? Only applicabl…
Sometimes it almost feels like there's more than one person on HN holding more than one opinion. I'm from the younger, lower end of the job market, far from the average HN user. You could accuse me of being excessively cynical. That's what happens when the systems you assumed would be there tell you to get bent the moment it's your turn to enter the job market. There's very few people my age I know who aren't angry a…
That I brought up things that cannot be automated right now was to demonstrate that we won’t go from the status quo—which is after all not a white collar automation wipeout, right now we just have layoffs from big firms that are arguably struggling but pinning it on the “Agentic Era”—to freaking mass employment + killer robots. And maybe that won’t last forever. So maybe we should fight back while we can.
Re: Software engineering may no longer be a lifetime career
#788Earlier quoted context omitted.
There’s over a century of history of workers “caring” and fighting back.
Yes, that is true. However, each time this happens, those people are eventually labelled as getting in the way of progress, luddites, etc, and it is easy for those that benefit (cheap food, cheap products) to simply go on with their "better" lives. I don't think there was a lot of support, outside the farming industry, to prevent machines from taking over peoples jobs even though 1/2 of the workforce were farmers. Si…
Is that a historical fact?
> I don't think there was a lot of support, outside the farming industry, to prevent machines from taking over peoples jobs even though 1/2 of the workforce were farmers. Similar for manufacturing.
Is that a historical fact?
Re: Software engineering may no longer be a lifetime career
#789Multiple times per week I have the same conversation. It goes something like this: - AI will make developers irrelevant - Why? - Because LLMs can write code - Do you know what I do for a living? - Yes, write code? - Yes, about 2-5% of the time. Less now. - But you said you are a developer? - I did - So what do you do 95-98% of the time? - I understand things and then apply my ability to formulate solutions - But I ca…
On one of my very first jobs in around 2000 I got paired with a much more experienced software engineer. He’d been a pro since the early 70s. I was stoked to learn from him. On like my fourth day he said “now I’m going to teach you the thing that helped me the most in my career…” I waited, ready for the received wisdom. And he said “always number your punch cards so if you drop them they will be easy to put back into…
Re: Software engineering may no longer be a lifetime career
#790Multiple times per week I have the same conversation. It goes something like this: - AI will make developers irrelevant - Why? - Because LLMs can write code - Do you know what I do for a living? - Yes, write code? - Yes, about 2-5% of the time. Less now. - But you said you are a developer? - I did - So what do you do 95-98% of the time? - I understand things and then apply my ability to formulate solutions - But I ca…
You don't think AI is going to be able to understand things and apply their ability to formulate solutions better than you, in the near future?