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Judge orders government to begin refunding more than $130B in tariffs

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Re: Judge orders government to begin refunding more than $130B in tariffs

#781

Post by tt24 »

myrmidon wrote: post #753
tt24 wrote: post #564

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that the purpose of taxation is not to keep consumption in check. I don’t think that wealth inequality is a problem, and therefore don’t agree that taxation should be used to address it.

If you want to shift tax burden from very wealthy Americans onto average citizens, what do you hope to achieve with that? What is the purpose of taxation then, in your view? > I don’t think that wealth inequality is a problem I have a very hard time understanding this perspective. Wealth can already buy (directly or indirectly) all forms of property, political power and even legal outcomes. I see no real way to remed…

I don’t see it as “shifting” burden onto the middle class - it’s more about shifting the burden away from the upper class, who carry a disproportionate amount of the burden.

Both wealthy Americans and the middle class consume approximately the same government resources, and it’s not fair that the upper class should have to shoulder the majority of the tax burden.

> What is the purpose of taxation then, in your view?

To fund the government.

> Wealth can already buy (directly or indirectly) all forms of property, political power and even legal outcomes.

I don’t agree with this claim. Bloomberg outspent his opponents to an absurd degree, which resulted in him losing by an embarrassing amount.

> Would you want to provide less equal opportunity in life for Americans is general, or would that be an undesirable side-effect?

I don’t agree that wealth inequality results in less opportunity for anyone.

Re: Judge orders government to begin refunding more than $130B in tariffs

#782

Post by sriram_malhar »

padjo wrote: post #702
sriram_malhar wrote: post #665

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Socialism, you mean, not communism. This is a way of spending taxes on the public, the kind Denmark does. It isn't "no private property; everything belongs to the govt". Also, if we are redistributing taxes to fund endless wars and subsidizing almond/avocado farmers, and propping up public money to ensure banks don't collapse, we are already in socialist territory. Have always been. But God forbid we spend the money…

I was joking

Ah! Sorry!

Re: Judge orders government to begin refunding more than $130B in tariffs

#783

Post by braincat31415 »

watwut wrote: post #772
braincat31415 wrote: post #770

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's exactly the kind of simplistic thinking that I was talking about. People had legitimate concerns about cost of living, food inflation (look at the charts of food prices 2020-2024), ballooning national debt, military adventures, crime, fraud, expensive housing and rent. I could go on. Trump's government is unlikely to offer any solutions to the above, but that's a different story. Voting because they wanted lib…

Frankly, that is just lying to yourself. None of that favored Trump. National debt, military adventures, crime, fraud - all of those are consistently better under democratic administrations. They are consistently worst under republican administrations. Trump himself committed crimes and it was very clear he will be more corrupt then anyone before him. Trump himself talked like someone who will be aggressive ... and h…

It does not matter what favors which administration (btw like I said, food inflation stats look awful during Biden's admin, although covid is probably more to blame). The grass is always greener on the other side, and people that cannot afford rent are just not going to vote for more of the same. It is always a swinging pendulum. The more I think about these things, the more I am convinced that Marx was right, and we only have a semblance of democracy. There is no fundamental difference between the parties.

Like I said, I am more worried about paying real estate taxes, keeping the house, getting my kids through the college, paying car insurance and being able to afford food, and not having to leave the city downtown before dark. Trans issues... not my concern at all. Immigrant rights - I frankly do not care. The plumber who was unclogging my kitchen pipe today is a Trump voter who is not a fan of this war, and he was mostly complaining about skyrocketting cost of doing business and cost of labor that started shooting up about 5 years ago, and THAT likely was the main reason for his vote. Many people keep hanging out on the forums where niche party darling issues get discussed nonstop, and that creates an impression that most of the population cares about them, but I don't believe that's the case at all.

Anyone who manages to decrease the cost of healthcare, food, gas, improves an economy, etc.etc. will get my vote. That was not Biden, and it is clear by now that will not be Vance. Anyone who talks about immigrant rights ahead of my own, defunding the police and so on will not get my vote.

Unfortunately I always seem to have a choice between a bad candidate and a worse candidate. This time I had to choose between a word salad producer who was a VP of a senile president, and a baffoon. The democratic candidate was as unlikeable as the republican. I stayed home. You guys can attack my position as much as you want, but I am not going to put my financial well-being and that of my kids behind the issues that do not matter much for me, and that is not going to change. I believe the same goes for most of american families.

I'll give you a small example. I live in heavily democratic district. A local government had a referendum a few years ago on permits to build low income housing units, subsidized by local taxes. Housing immigrant families was mentioned. The referendum was a complete fiasco. You would have barely found any Trump voters in the room. People's concern about taxation took precedence.

Last years took us from Obama to Trump to Biden back to Trump who will likely lose midterms because of many things including the Iran adventure. Neither party offered any tangible advantage.

Re: Judge orders government to begin refunding more than $130B in tariffs

#784

Post by [deleted] »

jurschreuder wrote: post #690

“We live in the age of computers,” Eaton said. “It must be possible for Customs Service to program its computers so it doesn’t need a manual review.” In DHL the link to get tax documents is already broken for a year or so, so I cannot get VAT back on DHL shipments. With FedEx I can but it's a manual process of screenshotting a bank transaction and emailing a specific email address with a shipping number. When tariffs…

[deleted]

Re: Judge orders government to begin refunding more than $130B in tariffs

#785

Post by Kye »

jurschreuder wrote: post #690

“We live in the age of computers,” Eaton said. “It must be possible for Customs Service to program its computers so it doesn’t need a manual review.” In DHL the link to get tax documents is already broken for a year or so, so I cannot get VAT back on DHL shipments. With FedEx I can but it's a manual process of screenshotting a bank transaction and emailing a specific email address with a shipping number. When tariffs…

It's too bad DOGE killed 18F. Doing this kind of thing, and doing it well was their whole reason for being.

Re: Judge orders government to begin refunding more than $130B in tariffs

#786

Post by tootie »

2snakes wrote: post #668
tootie wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's unbelievable he's still given any semblance of credence for anything he does. Trump is just palpably stupid. He is bad at absorbing information, he is bad at analytical thinking, he is impatient, vain and rash. Aside from his tenuous legal justification, he never once publicly expressed even a fundamental understanding of the basic mechanics of tariff collection nor what balance of trade actually means. You'd co…

It is a different kind of intelligence: System 1 instead of System 2. I guess you could call it startup style.

Being impulsive doesn't mean you have a good system 1 intelligence. Quite the opposite. His system 1 sucks and is driven entirely by superficial biases and ego. His system 2 appears to be moribund as he rarely comes up solutions beyond the same facile reasoning his system 1 comes up with. He has neither intellect nor good instincts.

Re: Judge orders government to begin refunding more than $130B in tariffs

#787

Post by mft_ »

sgc wrote: post #744
mft_ wrote: post #729

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you really want to get to the root cause, on the Democratic side it’s the people who promoted/supported/covered up for Biden when it would have been obvious to anyone close that he wasn’t fit for the purpose any more. And Biden himself, for his hubris. That was why things were rushed and there wasn’t a proper primary. Yes, they could have held a very late/quick convention and would likely not have picked Kamala, b…

I love how the root cause is always the opposition, never the perpetrator. Focusing on the Democrats (who are hot garbage) is such a wonderful way to keep attention focused anywhere but on the almost half the country still supporting a murderous cabal filled with people covering for a bunch of (other??) people who raped children to get pleasure from the sexual torture (yes, it's pretty clear from the Epstein files th…

Woah.

1) You seem to think I'm some sort of GOP-pedo-billionaire sympathiser; nothing could be further from the truth. I'll help you slam the prison door and throw away the key.

2) No-one mentioned Epstein in this part of the discussion until you did - I thoughts we were discussing tariffs. I was responding to someone saying that, in the context of the tariff mess, they blame the people who voted for Trump, and "the people who supported such a horrible Democratic candidate that she couldn't even win against Trump". My point was simply on this specific issue, the root cause was the hubris and chain of events that led to Kamala being chosen, almost at the last minute, rather than that people "supported" her in that situation.

(And if you need someone to explicitly state that, yes, they also blame the people who voted for Trump or you get triggered, then consider it confirmed.)

Re: Judge orders government to begin refunding more than $130B in tariffs

#788

Post by hammock »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #688
hammock wrote: post #628

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lutnick deal: if we pay you $X now, and then Y happens, you will make us the whole refund, even though that windfall may very well exceed $X. Insurance company deal: you pay us $X' now, and if Y' happens, we pay for everything which may substantively exceed $X'.

I have no idea what the point of this is, since it just restates what I wrote, and reinforces the point that the Lutnick deal is nothing like "insurance".

They are the same. If you don’t get it then I’m not sure I can help you further

Re: Judge orders government to begin refunding more than $130B in tariffs

#789

Post by NewJazz »

tremon wrote: post #742
mft_ wrote: post #729

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you really want to get to the root cause, on the Democratic side it’s the people who promoted/supported/covered up for Biden when it would have been obvious to anyone close that he wasn’t fit for the purpose any more. And Biden himself, for his hubris. That was why things were rushed and there wasn’t a proper primary. Yes, they could have held a very late/quick convention and would likely not have picked Kamala, b…

There is no single root cause in a complex system of checks and balances. Many parts need to fail for things to get as bad as they are now. Trying to reduce everything to a single fault is either stupid populism or blatant propaganda.

IMHO the highest court, which is tasked with delivering timely justice, ought to make their decisions in a reasonable amount of time, and not allow legally questionable executive actions to continue while the legal question is unanswered.

You may consider that populist, but my opinion is that SCOTUS has derelicted their constitutional duty in these trying times.

Re: Judge orders government to begin refunding more than $130B in tariffs

#790

Post by mafuy »

the_real_cher wrote: post #761
jurschreuder wrote: post #690

“We live in the age of computers,” Eaton said. “It must be possible for Customs Service to program its computers so it doesn’t need a manual review.” In DHL the link to get tax documents is already broken for a year or so, so I cannot get VAT back on DHL shipments. With FedEx I can but it's a manual process of screenshotting a bank transaction and emailing a specific email address with a shipping number. When tariffs…

DHL is massive scam company. I ordered a tent from overseas and they classified it as both a food product and an aluminum product and charged me 600 bucks in tariffs. I'm fighting to get it back but they keep ignoring me with polite "were really busy" replys.

A product can be both, according to the current US administration. DHL is not necessarily at fault here.
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