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Apple to soon take up to 30% cut from all Patreon creators in iOS app

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Re: Apple to soon take up to 30% cut from all Patreon creators in iOS app

#781

Post by NewsaHackO »

rpdillon wrote: post #612
NewsaHackO wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what are they even doing for regulators to have to step in? Making profits from someone selling their product in your market seems pretty valid to me. Are you saying this is anticompetitive to other possible app store storefronts like Google Play or something?

Just to ground the discussion in Apple's criminal behavior a bit, here's some excerpts from a 2025 ruling about Apple's behavior in this regard: > Apple’s response to the Injunction strains credulity. After two sets of evidentiary hearings, the truth emerged. Apple, despite knowing its obligations thereunder, thwarted the Injunction’s goals, and continued its anticompetitive conduct solely to maintain its revenue str…

So, I wanted to avoid referring to this case because it undermines any discussion, but if you want to include it, the judge ruled in favor of Apple for nine out of ten claims made by Epic, including 1) Apple's 30% commission is not anticompetitive behavior, and 2) Apple has the right to not allow third-party apps on their platform. Apple, being Apple, attempted to subvert the part about allowing links to other storefronts by adding a 27% commission aas well as a scare page, which is what they are currently in hot water for. However, the overall decision was solidly in Apple's favor regarding the App Store's 30% commission and practices.

> One, after trial, the Court found that Apple’s 30 percent commission “allowed it to reap supracompetitive operating margins” and was not tied to the value of its intellectual property, and thus, was anticompetitive.

Epic is twisting other people's words here. Notice how they quote “allowed it to reap supracompetitive operating margins” but not the point about it being anticompetitive. It's because the decision never said that.

Re: Apple to soon take up to 30% cut from all Patreon creators in iOS app

#782

Post by vel0city »

jorvi wrote: post #624
wlesieutre wrote: post #542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly I wouldn't be that shocked if Apple tried demanding a 30% royalty on bank deposits and bills paid using iPhone apps. They've decided the future of their company depends on being huge assholes about it.

Something interesting is that Apple and Google Pay charge a tiny commission (don't have the number at hand). Which banks didn't like, so at least on Android they created their own NFC payment stacks for a while. Only to then discover that maintaining such a stack cost them more per year than the commission.

Ah yes, back in the Isis days. What terrible luck in the naming department on that one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Softcard

Re: Apple to soon take up to 30% cut from all Patreon creators in iOS app

#783

Post by samrus »

layer8 wrote: post #528
samrus wrote: post #514

This is low even for apple. They havent earned commision on this at all

As they don’t for all the other digital-content purchases they have taken 30% for many years already. Which is why we have been getting great UX like being unable to buy books in the Kindle app.

Yeah. I get charging for hosting an app in your store, that requires work to build the ecosystem and security and stuff. But you have to draw the line on a platform and ecosystem and vetting that someone else has done. What did apple do to build kindles library of books? What did apple do to attract creators that patreon's users would like to support? Nothing. They should get 30% for installing paid apps that they are vetting and hosting, but nothing for things third parties are hosting and vetting

Re: Apple to soon take up to 30% cut from all Patreon creators in iOS app

#784

Post by vel0city »

browningstreet wrote: post #630
TheDong wrote: post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presumably you also would agree that it's fair if Chrome, Windows, and Lenovo all charged me 30% each for using Patreon via Chrome+Windows on a thinkpad, right? They're doing about as much to facilitate my use of Patreon as Apple is. This isn't like a mall at all. This is like a web browser, where apps are webpages, and Apple is insisting that the contents of that webpage are something they can dictate all payment te…

Chrome, Windows and Lenovo don't have the payment system baked in, with all the consumer protections that come with it. I'm not entirely pro-Apple percentage in this argument, but I think people often dismiss the magical thing that Apple created with the app store and their payment/subscription system. The rest of the world keeps ripping users off, and Apple's walled garden is as protected a thing as it gets. I've go…

Chrome and Windows definitely do have payment systems baked in. Google Pay, the Microsoft Store, etc.

Re: Apple to soon take up to 30% cut from all Patreon creators in iOS app

#785

Post by NewUser76312 »

I don't understand, doesn't the market solve these issues? Here's what I figure would happen:

1. App creators will pass the extra cost over to the iPhone users.

2. Android (and other platforms that can host smartphone apps) will be more competitive and start to look better for both app creators and consumers.

Sure, there's a bit of a context switching cost. Not everyone will just be able to automatically change over to an Android phone tomorrow. But it doesn't need to happen all at once. These phones get updated and replaced every 1-2 years. If iOS users see their app store prices rising too high, and they aren't OK with this, then they will switch to Android eventually, once it's worth it.

Otherwise, I don't see any problem with Apple reaping the benefit of their powerful and well-built walled garden ecosystem.

Re: Apple to soon take up to 30% cut from all Patreon creators in iOS app

#787

Post by Zak »

goatking wrote: post #722
vlod wrote: post #537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Off topic, but is there anything specific that you hate about Android? I find it acceptable. I'm trying to cut down my phone usage so maybe I'm more tolerant.

Not OP, but: "acceptable", that's the problem. Also I dislike Google more than Apple.

I'm wondering what adjectives you hope to apply to a phone operating system. I'm content with mine when I don't have to think about it, for which "acceptable" seems about right, and discontent when I do.

Re: Apple to soon take up to 30% cut from all Patreon creators in iOS app

#788

Post by ulrikrasmussen »

ericmay wrote: post #677
ulrikrasmussen wrote: post #587

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With freedom also comes responsibility, and some innocent people will inevitably shoot themselves in the foot. This is not a strong enough argument for putting everybody else in a cage and letting a duopoly take over virtually all of the distribution of consumer software.

It might be a strong argument depending on the negative effects - I don't think it's very clear cut. Also no, neither Apple nor Google have a duopoly on the distribution of all consumer software. Microsoft exists, for example. The other problem consideration here is negotiating power. Today consumers don't have negotiating power over individual developers, but both Apple and Google do. If you complain to Meta about t…

I run GrapheneOS, but I can't use the national digital identity app because it requires Google Play Integrity. I very much cannot do what I want without it having severe consequences because the duopoly is starting to shape the basic digital infrastructure, and critical services start requiring that I use one of the two ecosystems.

I think the principle of digital autonomy should be front and center. Surely we can figure out security models that don't imply that two American tech companies get to call the shots on what people can or cannot do on hardware that they supposedly own.

Re: Apple to soon take up to 30% cut from all Patreon creators in iOS app

#789

Post by pavel_lishin »

NewUser76312 wrote: post #785

I don't understand, doesn't the market solve these issues? Here's what I figure would happen: 1. App creators will pass the extra cost over to the iPhone users. 2. Android (and other platforms that can host smartphone apps) will be more competitive and start to look better for both app creators and consumers. Sure, there's a bit of a context switching cost. Not everyone will just be able to automatically change over…

> If iOS users see their app store prices rising too high, and they aren't OK with this, then they will switch to Android eventually, once it's worth it.

Or they'll stop buying as many apps, or stop supporting people on Patreon.

Re: Apple to soon take up to 30% cut from all Patreon creators in iOS app

#790

Post by dboreham »

Almondsetat wrote: post #656
silvestrov wrote: post #527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could make the argument that Patreon isn't much more than a banking app. It just focuses on the receiver of the money than the sender. I think Apple is slowly killing apps with this policy. Everybody will slowly move to "web only" as 30% would kill their ability to compete with anybody else. This will likely be much stronger in countries where iPhones do not have the same market share as in the US.

You couldn't make that argument because Patreon is also a platform to host content, not just send money. If it was something like a twitch donation app the argument would make more sense

The hosting aspect is only necessary because a) piracy and b) Google would eat their lunch if they were the gate keeper to content. Bit like how Ticketmaster takes all the money from artists because they get to say who sits in a seat.
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