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Ford F-150 Lightning outsold the Cybertruck and was then canceled for poor sales

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Re: Ford F-150 Lightning outsold the Cybertruck and was then canceled for poor sales

#781

Post by tirant »

treebeard901 wrote: post #768

It seems China has won the race for EV dominance in battery technology and manufacturing. Probably not much the U.S. can do to catch up. From the insane oil needs of the U.S. Military to the gasoline needed for a functioning economy and transportation, China will be light years ahead in every category which will have huge implications for U.S. National Security.

I am not so sure about it.

EV dominance is not only defined by battery technology but also by ADAS functions, driving dynamics and many other considerations also common to ICE cars.

In Europe, Chinese vehicles are only selling in any meaningful quantities in the low and very low price segments. And that is mainly due to cheaper labor costs in China and very thin margins (something European OEMs are not interested anymore).

When it comes to higher price segments, European OEMs and Tesla dominate clearly due to superior technology offerings. As an example, the BMW iX3 is completely sold out for months even before market release, as it’s the first car so far that has reached 1000km without charging (Debrecen - Munich). That’s not only a battery technology achievement but also aerodynamics and drivetrain efficiency, where BMW leads together with Tesla.

The Chinese market is very competitive itself as well, and is clearly dominated by Chinese OEMs. Classic European OEMs are seen as vehicles for old people, and newer generations are opting for local manufacturers. Infotainment and ADAS are also driving customers towards Chinese OEMS, mainly because of looser regulation which allows Chinese offerings to edge what Europeans and Americans are offering at the moment. To the point that the big three, Mercedes, BMW and Audi had to switch their ADAS stack to a Chinese made one (Momenta) in order to not lose more customers.

Battery technology is quickly becoming commodity and margins are thinning. Same as it happened in other industries: no one knows who is manufacturing their Samsung or iPhone battery. They might know about the CPU but they clearly care about the brand and the software experience. Cars are becoming not different.

In Europe that software experience (including driving dynamics) is and will be dominated by European OEMs, while leaving the cheap offerings for Chinese brands. They might even recover long term in China if they can quickly adapt their software to Chinese needs.

American OEMs will do fine, they either have high quality software offerings like Tesla or Rivian, or they can easily partner with American software companies to provide Americans with their desired experience.

Re: Ford F-150 Lightning outsold the Cybertruck and was then canceled for poor sales

#782

Post by mikkupikku »

Aurornis wrote: post #702
HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is utility, just not the utility you're thinking of. Try spending all day, every day in a basic, rough riding pickup truck, then compare it to spending all day in a "luxobarge" that can still tow a 7,000lb trailer. To the people I know who drive trucks like that, they're basically mobile offices.

Yep. The internet loves to bash truck owners as all being the same one guy who buys a truck to drive 1.3 miles to the office every day, but the audience of truck buyers is huge and diverse. Acting like nobody who buys a truck actually uses it or thinking that contractors couldn’t possibly appreciate (or deserve?) a nice interior for what is basically their mobile office is pretty out of touch.

Also, acting like the whole of the working class are basic burger shop cashiers who struggle to buy anything while simultaneously being idiots who buy 80k trucks just to "virtue signal"... This thread is totally incoherent. Most of the jobs people have are better than that, and most of the trucks people drive are cheaper than that, but the two extremes are mixed to create the most outlandish narrative.

Re: Ford F-150 Lightning outsold the Cybertruck and was then canceled for poor sales

#783

Post by freetime2 »

arcticbull wrote: post #779
grouchomarx wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I think the timing of the Cybertruck starting deliveries roughly aligning with when Elon got heavily involved in politics That and also it's just a bad product. >That said, even though it's not to my taste, I do admire that they dared to do something different and took a big gamble on it. A pickup truck should just be max utility, especially if you're a manufacturer making your first one edit: agree there's a market…

> A pickup truck should just be max utility, especially if you're a manufacturer making your first one > 75 percent of truck owners use their truck for towing one time a year or less (meaning, never). Nearly 70 percent of truck owners go off-road one time a year or less. And a full 35 percent of truck owners use their truck for hauling—putting something in the bed, its ostensible raison d’être—once a year or less. [1…

I wonder if there are any other countries in the world where the best-selling automobile is something completely impractical? Or are Americans unique in that regard?

Serious question. I can't think of any, but I'm also not familiar with car markets the world over. In Japan, for example, the best-selling car is the Honda N-BOX [1], which is an incredibly practical car.

[1] https://car.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/2076520.html

Re: Ford F-150 Lightning outsold the Cybertruck and was then canceled for poor sales

#784

Post by parineum »

tempest_ wrote: post #717
Aurornis wrote: post #711

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but a sprinter van is going to provide better actual utility for most trades Certain jobs in certain trades, not all of them > and a 80k f150 platinum Base F150 starts at half that. This is silly

> Certain jobs in certain trades, not all of them Correct, which is why I used said most trades and not all trades > Base F150 starts at half that. This is silly The average new vehicle price in the US is 50k, people are not buying the base model.

> The average new vehicle price in the US is 50k, people are not buying the base model.

Half of the vehicles are below 50k.

Re: Ford F-150 Lightning outsold the Cybertruck and was then canceled for poor sales

#785

Post by smetj »

Be it as it may, its aesthetics are so distinct it isn't for everybody. Also a big part of the target audience expecting to buy an utility vehicle have cheaper, proven and more practical alternatives. I guess the fact its not road legal in the EU doesn't help either whilst other Tesla models are quite popular there.

Re: Ford F-150 Lightning outsold the Cybertruck and was then canceled for poor sales

#786

Post by michaelt »

Aurornis wrote: post #702
HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is utility, just not the utility you're thinking of. Try spending all day, every day in a basic, rough riding pickup truck, then compare it to spending all day in a "luxobarge" that can still tow a 7,000lb trailer. To the people I know who drive trucks like that, they're basically mobile offices.

Yep. The internet loves to bash truck owners as all being the same one guy who buys a truck to drive 1.3 miles to the office every day, but the audience of truck buyers is huge and diverse. Acting like nobody who buys a truck actually uses it or thinking that contractors couldn’t possibly appreciate (or deserve?) a nice interior for what is basically their mobile office is pretty out of touch.

> thinking that contractors couldn’t possibly appreciate (or deserve?) a nice interior for what is basically their mobile office is pretty out of touch

I'm not familiar with the USA. What do contractors over there do in terms of clean/dirty clothes? Do they change into clean boots and trousers before getting into the truck? Or are they all in roles where they don't get their hands dirty?

In my country, vehicles marketed to tradesmen and agricultural workers usually aim for a hard-wearing, easy-to-clean interior that's fairly spartan.

Re: Ford F-150 Lightning outsold the Cybertruck and was then canceled for poor sales

#787

Post by parineum »

arcticbull wrote: post #780
themafia wrote: post #704

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I promise you with all my heart You have such a deep misanthropic view that it's prevented you from seeing anything outside of it. You're preaching a faith not practicing an understanding of the world. > Nobody is buying a gigantic vehicle There are tons of contractors, laborers, small business and property owners who need the space or the utility of the vehicle. The reason these vehicles sell well is because they…

> According to Edwards’ data, 75 percent of truck owners use their truck for towing one time a year or less (meaning, never). Nearly 70 percent of truck owners go off-road one time a year or less. And a full 35 percent of truck owners use their truck for hauling—putting something in the bed, its ostensible raison d’être—once a year or less. > So what do people actually like about trucks? According to Edwards, the ans…

> the majority are just using it as parent said, a luxobarge

25% use it for towing.

30% use it off road.

65% use it for hauling.

Obviously there's overlap but how many people do none of those three?

It's less than 35% which is not a majority.

Re: Ford F-150 Lightning outsold the Cybertruck and was then canceled for poor sales

#788

Post by freetime2 »

alexjplant wrote: post #183
grouchomarx wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I think the timing of the Cybertruck starting deliveries roughly aligning with when Elon got heavily involved in politics That and also it's just a bad product. >That said, even though it's not to my taste, I do admire that they dared to do something different and took a big gamble on it. A pickup truck should just be max utility, especially if you're a manufacturer making your first one edit: agree there's a market…

> A pickup truck should just be max utility, especially if you're a manufacturer making your first one The modern US pickup truck isn't built for utility. It's a $60,000 four-door lifted luxobarge with leather interior and a short bed. It signals (perceived) wealth while preserving working-class alignment. It can also be justified by way of having to pick up used furniture for TikTok refinish and flip projects or bim…

Pickup trucks also portray toughness - the other all-important American virtue in addition to wealth. I always get a kick out of American Football ad breaks, where every other commercial is either a truck commercial narrated by some guy with an extremely gravelly voice talking about how tough their trucks are, or an ad for ED pills.

Re: Ford F-150 Lightning outsold the Cybertruck and was then canceled for poor sales

#789

Post by ErroneousBosh »

zdragnar wrote: post #384
ErroneousBosh wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's got the same towing capacity of an older Kia Sportage. How often do you need to pull 2000kg?

Several times a year at a minimum, and not always with good notice. Towing weight is also a good proxy for frame strength. I do some light forestry work moving and bucking logs, freeing stuck cars, plowing snow in addition to towing trailers and equipment.

Okay, so a Kia Sportage ought to do then, I guess?

Re: Ford F-150 Lightning outsold the Cybertruck and was then canceled for poor sales

#790

Post by pbmonster »

rootusrootus wrote: post #445
erikstarck wrote: post #26

I'm as much of a Tesla Fan Boy that you can be but I have to say, the F-150 seems like a darn good vehicle and it's sad they're killing it. I especially like the V2X features.

I don't think they're really killing it. The Lightning EREV is next, and my bet is it's almost identical to the BEV version but with an engine where the big beautiful frunk is now. Gives them something to sell the people who think they need big range numbers, but also gives them an easy path back to a full BEV. I kind of expect them to backpedal on the full cancelation and make both vehicles.

> my bet is it's almost identical to the BEV version but with an engine where the big beautiful frunk is now

Would be interesting how small and how cheap you can design a ~50kW genset to be (any smaller and you don't gain that highly coveted towing range). I don't think it's an easy task, you still need to integrate the crash compliant fuel tank, the emissions compliant exhaust system, water cooling for the engine, ect.

It's a pretty long BOM you're adding to an already expensive BEV, so you don't really have thousands of dollars of budget to add to the production cost.

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