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Stripe Launches L1 Blockchain: Tempo

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Re: Stripe Launches L1 Blockchain: Tempo

#781
post #46

There are lots of crypto skeptics on HN (and we ourselves were disappointed with crypto's payments utility for much of the past decade), so it might be interesting to share what changed our mind over the past couple of years: we started to notice a lot of real-world businesses finding utility in stablecoins. For example, Bridge (a stablecoin orchestration platform that Stripe acquired) is used by SpaceX for managing…

It sounds great, but every time I see this argument, I end up going down the rabbit hole of actually studying how stablecoins operate. And every time, I come to the same conclusion: they always rely on trust in an off-chain oracle or custodian. At that point, a shared ledger implemented with traditional databases / protocols would be faster, easier, and more transparent. Bitcoin (and possibly a few others) is one of…

Stablecoins are a necessary legal hack.

The US has regulated itself into a corner when it comes to AML/KYC. Those regulations ended up causing more problems than they solve, but they can't ever be undone. If something ever happens, like a terrorist attack funded by money laundering activity that the existing regulations could possibly have prevented, the blame will fall squarely on the shoulders of the politicians who decided to undo them.

It's much easier (and politically safer) to say that stablecoins are just a different asset class, and hence very different regulations should apply to them. This essentially lets politicians design a parallel, much more permissive financial regulatory system from scratch, with many lessons learned from the existing one. If something ever happens, it can always be blamed on "those pesky stablecoin issuers who keep prioritizing profits over the security of our nation."

From a purely technical perspective, any stablecoin could be replaced by a centralized database mapping public keys to balances, at much lower cost and with very little loss in functionality. That, however, would look too much like a bank from the regulatory side.

Re: Stripe Launches L1 Blockchain: Tempo

#782
post #621

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My online bank doesn’t support international wire transfers. I had to wire money to a local bank then go to the branch in person, twice, to wire money to my own brother in Europe. He then had to schedule an appointment with his own bank, go in person, and justify why he received such a big transfer, mind you, it was 8k… So yeah, it’s not about regulation. If crypto can help streamline all this, it’s a net positive

I wired approximately that much money internationally years ago with Wise (then known as TransferWise). Wasn't a hassle at all, didn't require any rigamarole, and importantly, didn't require crypto. What's the problem with using Wise?

I'm a Wise user. Transfers are mostly fine for currencies they support. The transfer is usually pretty fast. I tried paying for a guided Hike in Tbilisi, Georgia a few years ago, and the transfer took almost a week, so it's slow in some cases. For currencies Wise doesn't support, you need to look at other options, such as Western Union or crypto.

Re: Stripe Launches L1 Blockchain: Tempo

#783
post #76

This uses blockchain only for marketing buzzwords. Stablecoins require trusting that the coin issuer doesn't print money. This goes against the core premise of blockchain being trustless! This is just a payment API with extra steps (all of the integrity and identity features use cryptography that works without blockchain, unless your definition of blockchain is broad enough to include git and matrix chats, then the s…

not true of algorithmic stablecoins

Which algorithmic stable coins are left?

Re: Stripe Launches L1 Blockchain: Tempo

#785
post #46

There are lots of crypto skeptics on HN (and we ourselves were disappointed with crypto's payments utility for much of the past decade), so it might be interesting to share what changed our mind over the past couple of years: we started to notice a lot of real-world businesses finding utility in stablecoins. For example, Bridge (a stablecoin orchestration platform that Stripe acquired) is used by SpaceX for managing…

It sounds great, but every time I see this argument, I end up going down the rabbit hole of actually studying how stablecoins operate. And every time, I come to the same conclusion: they always rely on trust in an off-chain oracle or custodian. At that point, a shared ledger implemented with traditional databases / protocols would be faster, easier, and more transparent. Bitcoin (and possibly a few others) is one of…

The value of Bitcoin also depends on your ability to convert it to real world money, since contracts are denoted in real world money.

I'd argue the real value of money lies in contract enforcement. And I am talking about real world physical enforcement like police throwing you in jail. In financial engineering literature we don't really care about the real value of money, the only assumption needed is that contracts are enforced. If that is the case then you can hedge.

For example: You sign an employment contract where you get paid in USD. You also sign a rental and utility contracts in USD. If salary > housing cost, then you essentially have your housing needs hedged. You don't really care that USD has "real value". The value of USD lies in the fact that these contracts are enforced by the government.

The rarity of a currency is important in the sense that contracts don't make sense for all parties if the currency is too abundant. For example, if you can find USD laying on the street, then you would not work for USD. The rarity mechanism itself is not important.

Re: Stripe Launches L1 Blockchain: Tempo

#786
post #46

There are lots of crypto skeptics on HN (and we ourselves were disappointed with crypto's payments utility for much of the past decade), so it might be interesting to share what changed our mind over the past couple of years: we started to notice a lot of real-world businesses finding utility in stablecoins. For example, Bridge (a stablecoin orchestration platform that Stripe acquired) is used by SpaceX for managing…

Quoting https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2019/02/blockchain_an...:

> Private blockchains are completely uninteresting. (By this, I mean systems that use the blockchain data structure but don’t have the above three elements.) In general, they have some external limitation on who can interact with the blockchain and its features. These are not anything new; they’re distributed append-only data structures with a list of individuals authorized to add to it. Consensus protocols have been studied in distributed systems for more than 60 years. Append-only data structures have been similarly well covered. They’re blockchains in name only, and—as far as I can tell—the only reason to operate one is to ride on the blockchain hype.

In particular, using the term "blockchain"/"crypto" to talk about something more centralized / permissioned than e.g. Bitcoin is missing the point: these systems already existed before.

So what do you mean by "crypto" exactly? Distributed systems? I don't think you'll find many distributed systems skeptics on HN.

Re: Stripe Launches L1 Blockchain: Tempo

#787

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So many of the crypto skeptic comments on this story are massively out of touch with the products and sophistication of the crypto industry. For those of us who aren’t, the question has basically been flipped to “what does a bank add to this situation?” . I’m typing this shortly after buying my groceries with a visa debit card that was funded 30 seconds before the transaction over Lightning Network with Bitcoin that…

I am curious about the Lightning Network, 10 years in it is still perceived as a failure. What is blocking its adoption? One I can think about is it is hard to accept that if I pay $20 for a pizza today, 6 months later that pizza might have cost me $40. It is a bit irrational but it will prevent most people from using it. This is where the stablecoin thing is genius, one can decide/optimise when get in and out of cry…

> What is blocking its adoption?

There's no native web experience that makes it easy to use Lightning in a browser; this forces everyone to step outside the box to figure out a way to (e.g. install extension or download an app)

There's also not much of an app ecosystem for it providing enough utility for people to use it each week/day

Re: Stripe Launches L1 Blockchain: Tempo

#788
post #46

There are lots of crypto skeptics on HN (and we ourselves were disappointed with crypto's payments utility for much of the past decade), so it might be interesting to share what changed our mind over the past couple of years: we started to notice a lot of real-world businesses finding utility in stablecoins. For example, Bridge (a stablecoin orchestration platform that Stripe acquired) is used by SpaceX for managing…

It sounds great, but every time I see this argument, I end up going down the rabbit hole of actually studying how stablecoins operate. And every time, I come to the same conclusion: they always rely on trust in an off-chain oracle or custodian. At that point, a shared ledger implemented with traditional databases / protocols would be faster, easier, and more transparent. Bitcoin (and possibly a few others) is one of…

My current best guess is that people are finding stablecoins valuable because they are effectively barer assets issued by an entity in another jurisdiction that has no requirement to surveil or control how those tokens are moved around between parties, and hence it allows you to skip a lot of the regulatory overhead you would normally have in dealing with a local bank. Of course this can be stopped by states eventually, but it helps when the jurisdiction of the issuing entity is allowing it.

Re: Stripe Launches L1 Blockchain: Tempo

#789
post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand all of this and I stand by my claim of pointlessness. Stripe, nor any other bank or bank-esque thing needs this because they have already well solved their problem of "trust." "Blockchain" is pointless overhead here.

I wouldn't really say trust is a solved problem in cross-border transfers. Why only today I've seen transactions where: - an intermediary credited another institution only to realise later they didn't have the money, and have to beg pretty-please to return the payment over a SWIFT message (there is no guarantee here, at best there is "market practice" which is basically just manners, but for banks) - an intermediary…

> an intermediary credited another institution only to realise later they didn't have the money, and have to beg pretty-please to return the payment over a SWIFT message (there is no guarantee here, at best there is "market practice" which is basically just manners, but for banks)

But this situation is not made any better by a blockchain - there's still no way to reverse a transaction except asking nicely and hoping the other party obliges, right?

Re: Stripe Launches L1 Blockchain: Tempo

#790

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you do fractional reserve banking with stablecoins where you lend out the underlying dollars to people and don't have full reserves? That's what makes banking tricky. When there are a surge of loan defaults across the banking system the money supply shrinks rapidly unless the government bails them out. Thus, the need for regulation. One reason the U.S government has to like stablecoins is because Tether is one of…

In FIAT money lending is the act of money creation, rather than lending existing money held in account. I’m guessing that wouldn’t have a parallel with stablecoins because the technology won’t let you just make new money at will?

The underlying feature of FIAT money creation is debt. And debt is a very natural thing (existing before money) that will just manifest in the crypto system instead.
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