Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

We may not like what we become if A.I. solves loneliness

newyorker.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

781–790 of 1001 posts

Re: We may not like what we become if A.I. solves loneliness

#781

Post by wizzwizz4 »

ninetyninenine wrote: post #709
wizzwizz4 wrote: post #651

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Where do Taxes come from? Business and profit. Funny you should say that: business and profit are actually way undertaxed in the US, compared to (for instance) salaries and pensions. But, you're still talking about the on-paper accounting (and choosing an arbitrary point in a cyclic economy as the "original source", but let's ignore that for now). Let's consider how progress actually occurs, on the ground. People l…

>Let's consider how progress actually occurs, on the ground. People learn how things work, whether through study, experience, original thought, or (more often) a mix of the three. They then attempt to find improvements: new methods, new machines, new buildings. They then verify these improvements, through experiment, theory, or a mix of the three. We call this "innovation". They then put these into practice: building…

> And all of this is primarily driven by business and desire for profit.

When construction is driven by a desire for profit, you get shoddy buildings that, if you're unlucky, kill people. See e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grenfell_Tower_fire, or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyatt_Regency_walkway_collapse – the latter is twice relevant, since the response also challenges your thesis. When buildings are built well, it's because they're built by people who care about their work. Cutting corners (a directly profitable activity, in many situations – and repeatedly profitable, if you play your cards right) is not what I call "progress".

I'm not certain you know what profit is. What do you mean, when you use that word?

> what I'm saying is that status and power is what drives people more than anything else.

Thank you for stating your thesis so clearly. While these things are a major driver of war, they are not a significant driver of human progress.

> the core common sense colloquilal nature of

I've noticed a lot of unjustified assertions from you, which are presumably also appeals to "common sense". How does your "common sense" explain Wikipedia?

Re: We may not like what we become if A.I. solves loneliness

#782

Post by 9rx »

kjkjadksj wrote: post #746
9rx wrote: post #545

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because the night starts way earlier than it used to. The data is abundantly clear about that. Back in my day you didn't even leave home for a night out before 11PM. You couldn't spend that much even if you tried before everything was closed and there was nowhere left to spend. Young people today, on the other hand, are favouring starting the night out in the early evening, even the afternoon. A night out may…

The night started as soon as you were able to drink back then. It was college. Some bars had specials starting at 1pm. People would be there with their backpacks on still straight from class. People would get off work and immediately drink. We’d usually be drinking for at least 5 hours before we started crawling bars. On weekends we’d drink literally the entire day. We’d duct tape cases of beer to our chest and would…

> The night started as soon as you were able to drink back then.

The drinking started much earlier. Typically you'd drink at home first so that you were already drunk on cheap liquor. Sure, if you had a place nearby that had specials that could compete with the cost of drinking at home, you might opt for that instead, but there is no material difference found in that. What is key here is that people did everything they could to keep the cost down, limiting the high cost experience associated with going out to just a couple of hours before everything closed down.

The "YOLO youth" of today don't care. Some researchers have suggested that because they feel they have no future they have no qualms about spending today, but whatever the exact mechanics of are it is clear that they aren't trying to pinch pennies like previous generations did. They are almost certainly spending 5x more, but that is buying them an entirely different night out as compared to what people were accustomed to in the past. The same night out isn't 5x more expensive. Not in any way, shape, or form.

Re: We may not like what we become if A.I. solves loneliness

#783

Post by jaco6 »

Nathanba wrote: post #335
egypturnash wrote: post #295

It's not going to solve loneliness. It's just going to provide a weak substitute for actual socialization. Talking with actual humans but only over the internet is not enough, I have been there and it was a terrible trap, it provided just enough to make it possible for me to avoid physical socialization, while not giving me enough to actually thrive; we need to get out and be in the same place with other people, doin…

Real humans are also fake and they are also traps who are waiting to catch you when you say something they don't like. Then they also use every word and piece of information as ammunition against you, ironically sort of similar to the criticism always levied against online platforms who track you and what you say. AI robots are going to easily replace real humans because compared to most real humans the AI is already…

[dead]

Re: We may not like what we become if A.I. solves loneliness

#784

Post by loa_in_ »

watwut wrote: post #538
albumen wrote: post #528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ireland. https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/criminal-law/c... Edit: Wikipedia page on drinking in public: "In some countries, such as Norway,[1] Poland,[2] India and Sri Lanka[3][non-tertiary source needed], some states in the United States,[4] as well as Muslim-majority countries where alcohol is legal, public drinking is almost universally condemned or outlawed, while in other countries, such as Denmark,…

I find Poland suspicious. I dunno about the law, but Polish of all ages drink outside and don't think twice about it. I did it there too.

Poland lives in the era of fight against pathological alcoholism. With the advent of modern heavy machinery like forklifts (as opposed to truck beds and strong arms and backs), many workplaces became hostile towards alcohol where previously alcohol was just part of workplace culture. This lead to a huge fallout of people who either became functional alcoholic outside of work or became jobless and miserable.

Re: We may not like what we become if A.I. solves loneliness

#785

Post by 9rx »

StopDisinfo910 wrote: post #765
burnt-resistor wrote: post #679

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parks and trails are/were non commercial meeting spaces. City recreational parks in America used to have water fountains and cool stuff like climbable sculptures for kids and decommissioned Korean War era fighter jets in sand pits. That all went away with the helicopter parents.

I think a culture which views suing for everything as legitimate and the very peculiar and frankly weird specificity which enabled it to - the existence of punitive damages and them going to the other party - has a lot more to do with it than helicopter parenting. I always find it surprising that American lament the death of shared spaces - because that’s what public spaces are - when it’s pretty obvious that they do…

> more to do with it than helicopter parenting.

Yes, fear of being sued was the ultimate death of all that stuff, but, to be fair, helicopter parenting is a manifestation of what is the same fear (e.g. "What if someone calls CPS?"). You are ultimately talking about the same thing.

> when it’s pretty obvious that they don’t actually want to spend time with each other.

Which too no doubt stems from the very same fear again. Hard to want to spend time with other people when you have to continually look over your shoulder. Most people show love, compassion, and kindness, but there is always that one person who is ready to go atomic at the drop of a hat that ruins it for everyone else.

Re: We may not like what we become if A.I. solves loneliness

#786

Post by NoLinkToMe »

Buttons840 wrote: post #442
dv_dt wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Though it's popularized to blame social media and phones, economics should not be overlooked. Pay for young generations is lagging and restaurants and bar prices are super high. Public spaces for informal gatherings has shrunk - eg fewer malls

The average age of first home owners has risen to 38. In another decade or two the American dream will probably be to buy a house when you're 50 and then settle down, get married, and have a family. I wonder how that's going to work out?

Part of this is simply a function of the average age. There's a much bigger squeeze of life events when everyone dies at 60 instead of 90. We become older, meaning our life events are stretched out further, we leave school later, begin work later, buy a house later, have kids later, retire later, die later. Secondly, within the population the share of old is becoming bigger, meaning the average buyer is older, and also the average age of first buyers is older.

If you look through the statistics we are actually richer in terms of housing than ever before. There's two stats: home size, and persons-per-house. In the past half century or so, home size doubled while persons-per-house dropped by 25%. So we live in bigger homes and share them with fewer people, housing-per-person has been increasing decade after decade to the point it's almost 3x what it was since the war.

Re: We may not like what we become if A.I. solves loneliness

#787

Post by _Algernon_ »

mgraczyk wrote: post #748
fugalfervor wrote: post #747

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I found all of the first jobs I had in highschool and just after. 3/3 of my first roles now advertise a minimum salary over twice what I was paid 14-18 years ago. Prices have gone up around 20-30% since then overall so I would have had 40% more purchasing power today with the same jobs. Holy Anecdote, Batman!

From the line before: > Data from the fed and payroll providers show this overwhelmingly to be the case, but just to add some color/anecdote.

>proceeds to not link any of this data and expects everyone to just take their word for it.

Re: We may not like what we become if A.I. solves loneliness

#788

Post by anovikov »

rcarr wrote: post #523
socalgal2 wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't match my experience. In fact one thing I noticed living in Japan is how much more willing people are to spend money to meet up. Lots of events costs 3000-7000 yen. Clubs and bar have a cover charge. People will organize parties where they rent a bar and tell their friends it's 4000 yen each (about $27 currently but was closer to $40) in the past. They'll even have house parties and tell everyone to pitch…

Out of all developed nations, Japan is probably the one least affected by housing pricing in the world seeing as though Japanese housing depreciates rather than appreciates over time. Rent prices in America are a staggering 177.4% more expensive than Japan[1]. Ever increasing house prices, caused by the underlying power imbalance between capital and labour, is the root of all evil in the Anglosphere. It will not stop…

Isn't housing exactly the most accessible of all the world save for 2-3 totalitarian countries like Oman, in the United States? According to the Numbeo data exactly.

It also has nothing to do with labor vs capital. Billionaires don't invest (much) in housing. Sometimes they do invest in commercial real estate, but never into housing. It's the middle class who buys up everything - now almost exclusively in cash - and then won't leave those houses till death, as Silent generation currently dies.

Re: We may not like what we become if A.I. solves loneliness

#789

Post by imtringued »

dv_dt wrote: post #257
stdvit wrote: post #97

> Even in a world brimming with easy distractions—TikTok, Pornhub, Candy Crush, Sudoku—people still manage to meet for drinks, work out at the gym, go on dates, muddle through real life. They actually don't. Everything from dating and fitness to manufacturing and politics is in decline in activities, and more so in effect and understanding. You can't convince (enough) people anymore that it is even important as many…

Though it's popularized to blame social media and phones, economics should not be overlooked. Pay for young generations is lagging and restaurants and bar prices are super high. Public spaces for informal gatherings has shrunk - eg fewer malls

We have an economic system that is actively hostile to new generations because the idea behind neoclassical economics is that you have an endowment you turn into money to buy things, but that very endowment isn't passed onto younger generations in a guaranteed fashion due to rising inequality.

As a member of the younger generations you notice that everything is owned by the older generations, which means you have to beg the older generations to let you live in dignity.

But this doesn't end once the younger generations turn into the older generations, because their parents also suffered the same problem, which means they might have enough for themselves, but they didn't have enough to pass down for you, leading to a spiral of immiseration.

Smart parents notice this pattern and decide "If I was unwanted and my children are or will be unwanted, then how about I don't have any at all?"

Re: We may not like what we become if A.I. solves loneliness

#790

Post by NoLinkToMe »

IgorPartola wrote: post #142
stdvit wrote: post #97

> Even in a world brimming with easy distractions—TikTok, Pornhub, Candy Crush, Sudoku—people still manage to meet for drinks, work out at the gym, go on dates, muddle through real life. They actually don't. Everything from dating and fitness to manufacturing and politics is in decline in activities, and more so in effect and understanding. You can't convince (enough) people anymore that it is even important as many…

I’d like to offer an alternative explanation than AI to this. Shit is just too damn expensive. If you want to go hang out with friends it will cost you $4-8 for a cup of coffee. A dinner starts at $50/person. A trip to an amusement park is over $100 easily. The median individual income in the US currently is just over $65k/year or about $32.50/hour. That means half the workforce makes less than that. When an 8oz cock…

This isn't really borne out by the statistics. Real median personal income has been trending up for a century now, the longest dips (before an upwards trend would ensue) were periods of 5 years of mild deterioration. [0]

It also doesn't sit well with my personal anecdata. My life and that of my friends is way better than their parents. I've literally travelled to all major continents in the world for recreational travel by the time mom had only left her village at around 20 years old, for example.

Cocktails is just an absurd standard for anything. It's the one item you can buy that is completely and utterly divorced from its costs, its price is a function of how rich people are that this thing is being sold, not how expensive it is to produce a cocktail. 2 cents of sugar and 30 cents of liquor and $15 of branding being sold for $15.50 doesn't mean life is expensive, it means people in this neighbourhood are pretty rich and can throw away money. My mom literally has never had a cocktail in her life yet has had a very socially rich life.

Yesterday I spent the day with my brother, we rented a car for $50, drove to another town, had some sandwiches and drinks, we spent $100. Today a friend is coming over to my house and I'll pour him a 20 cent coffee and I'll probably make a snack as well, then we'll go for a walk around town while catching up, maybe grab a $2 beer from the supermarket and some fruit and sit by the water. Total cost [0] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N

Post reply on HN