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I'd rather read the prompt

claytonwramsey.com

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Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#781

Post by johnnyanmac »

chipsrafferty wrote: post #690
animal_spirits wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Further, if a student can get a diploma without work, then the diploma does not have value anymore. If diplomas are no longer valuable, the signal they provide in the labor market will turn into noise. If employers no longer look for the diploma-signal in an employee, what will be the reason an employer will hire an employee? I think this story will become true, and society will radically shift into one where critica…

Why wouldn't the shift to be to raise the standards of the schools?

It's aroind 5 years out but schools are gonna have a rude awakening as the population decrease finally catches up to them. The standards won't raise because many will simply shut down over lack of students.

The Harvards will be fine, though. But I guess that will raise the standards naturally.

Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#782

Post by johnnyanmac »

renewiltord wrote: post #507
smcg wrote: post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies don't want to retain anyone longer than 2 years. They would never go for this unless forced to. By collective action.

It’s not that they can’t. It’s that I can always pay more by freeloading on their training.

Sure, then they complain that "nobody wants to work abymore".

They can't have it both ways

Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#783

Post by Retric »

jacobr1 wrote: post #764
Retric wrote: post #753

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> while many practical skills are at best learned as a side effect. I strongly disagree, that’s the intent not a side effect. It’s IMO a common misconception that early algorithm classes are just designed around learning algorithms. Instead basic algorithms are the simplest thing to turn abstract requirements into complex code. The overwhelming majority of what students learn are the actual tools of programming, debu…

That is true, in the sense that the 100/200 level classes are covering programming basics in addition to whatever algorithmic theory is being presented. But beyond that that, programs really seem to differ pretty strongly on applied projects and software engineering practices (basic stuff like source control) and more theoretical/mathematical concepts. One type of capstone style class commonly seen is compiler design…

That’s fair.

My experience is graduates of schools focused on the more practical aspects tend to make better Jr developers on day one but then stagnate. Meanwhile graduates of the more theoretical programs people pick up those same practical skills on the job leaving them better prepared for more demanding assignments.

This then feeds into the common preference for CS degrees even if they may not actually be the best fit for the specific role.

Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#784

Post by johnnyanmac »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #565
dmazzoni wrote: post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if your goal is to be a musician, a music degree is basically useless. Whether you want to play in an orchestra, perform in a rock band, or compose video game soundtracks, nobody cares whether you have a degree or not - they want to hear you perform.

I won't say there are exactly zero self-taught professionals in classical music because I don't know for sure. But I will say I've never heard of one. If they exist at all they're exceptionally rare. The music industry is built on the back of people with music degrees. They don't get the name recognition of headliners. But song writers, arrangers, and session musicians are all very likely to have formal training in t…

All industries are built on the backs of truly educated and passionate talent. Those people often don't reap the fruit they help sow to everyone else that makes billions, trillion off them.

Music is no different from software in thst regard.

Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#785

Post by astrange »

seattle_spring wrote: post #533
palata wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This kind of "perf review" hacking works ~everywhere I don't have tons of examples, but in my experience: * This worked in toxic environments. They deserve it. * This doesn't work in a functional environment, because they don't have those bullshit metrics. If you have to rely on those tricks, it's time to look for another job.

Which big, well-paying companies do not have "those bullshit metrics"? I know for a fact that Meta, Google, Stripe, Airbnb, and Oracle all lean heavily on performance review cycles based entirely on ridiculous metrics. Getting ahead there requires you to play the stupid games GP is suggesting.

The original post doesn't mention anything quantitative ("metrics"). Did this get sidetracked?

> Depends on what you are looking for. I’ve turned half baked ideas into white papers for plenty of praise. I’ve used them to make my Jira tickets seem complicated and complete. I’ve used them to get praised for writing comprehensive documentation.

This is about giving people a good impression of you so they'll write strong peer feedback.

Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#786

Post by johnnyanmac »

vendiddy wrote: post #752
jameshart wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve come across this analogy that I think works well: Using an LLM to do schoolwork is like taking a forklift to the gym. If all we were interested in was moving the weights around, you’d be right to use a tool to help you. But we’re doing this work for the effect it will have on you . The reason a teacher asks you a question is not because they don’t know the answer.

That's a good one. One analogy I use a lot: if I have a professor sitting next to me, what is the best way to learn a topic? Struggle through it on my own and I won't be leveraging the professors knowledge. Ask the professor to do everything for me and I won't be learning anything at all. Now if the professor is an AI, the same trade-offs hold. For example, I will back and forth conversations with AI to explain subje…

The fatal flaw here is that an AI is more like asking a politician. Except maybe it won't gaslight you. It often has no idea what it's talking about, and pushing back may even have it change it's tune.

>And of course, none of this matters if I don't want to learn something :)

Society makes people do a lot of things they don't want. I wonder if we're going to hit a breaking point this generation.

Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#787

Post by zharknado »

Mbwagava wrote: post #585
nine_k wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a medieval guild, to be admitted as a master, an apprentice had to create a chef d'oevre, or masterpiece, so called for this reason. In the computer engineering industry, you increasingly have to demonstrate the same: either as a part of your prior work for hire, or a side project, or a contribution to something open-source. A diploma is still a useful signal, but not sufficient, except maybe for very junior posit…

Apprentices were supported, tho. We just chuck kids out in the cold with college debt and hope they survive with little reason to think they will.

And they were supported because they were useful labor. Even an unskilled, brand-new apprentice could pump the bellows, sweep the forge, haul wood and water, deliver messages. If it frees up the master to produce more valuable output, that’s a win-win. Then they can grow into increasingly valuable tasks as they gain awareness and skill.

IMO one of the big problems is that we’ve gone too far with the assumption that learners can’t be valuable until after they’re done learning. Partly a cultural shift around the role of children and partly the reality that knowledge work doesn’t require much unskilled labor compared to physical industries.

Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#788

Post by bluecheese452 »

bumby wrote: post #356
mlsu wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of education isn't to actually learn though. It's to receive the credential. This is much larger than a cultural problem with the students of today. They believe, rightfully and accurately, that the university degree is yet another part of the machine that they will become a cog in. What should be alarming to everyone is that these students will graduate without having learned anything and then go into the…

This attitude is part of a more general cultural shift. Back in the 1960s, the majority of students said the primary motivation for going to college was to develop a philosophy of life, and a minority said the main goal was to be very financially successful. Somewhere around the 1980s this started to shift and the proportions are now inverted. * according to the UCLA CIRP freshman survey

Yeah because in the 60s you could support a wife and 4 kids, buy a house and 2 cars, without a high school diploma, all before turning 25. There was no reason to go to college unless you were interested in learning.

These days you need a college degree just to afford a 1 bedroom apartment by the time you are 40.

Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#789

Post by seattle_spring »

bdangubic wrote: post #660
seattle_spring wrote: post #533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which big, well-paying companies do not have "those bullshit metrics"? I know for a fact that Meta, Google, Stripe, Airbnb, and Oracle all lean heavily on performance review cycles based entirely on ridiculous metrics. Getting ahead there requires you to play the stupid games GP is suggesting.

If you work there, as OP said, it's time to look for another job.

Totally, if you're willing to trade in your half-million or more annual compensation for $150k or less. My point is that it's an unfortunate game you have to play if you're working for places like that.

Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#790

Post by pjmlp »

chmod775 wrote: post #756
pjmlp wrote: post #645

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunely they are common enough to keep lawyers and book publishing businesses going with dictionaries "evaluation => real meaning", exactly for that little help to go though it and validate its correctness. Many employeers profit from foreigners that aren't well versed in these nuances, and have to be educated this is a thing. An example for others not used to German work market, https://www.karriereakademie.de/a…

There's software for that even. The input is a ranking of the employee on a bunch axis (1-5 or something) and it spits out the appropriate text. Does the reverse too.

That one is new to me, sadly doesn't surprise me.

When one gets to have a good works council, there are plenty of stories that go around.

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