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Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

bbc.com

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Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#781

Post by shermantanktop »

Marsymars wrote: post #750
Xelbair wrote: post #581

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Just in time" is a phrase I hate with vehement passion. You aren't optimizing the system, you're reducing safety marigns - and consequences are usually similar to Challanger. This is a solution that teenager put in management position would think of(along with hire more people as solution to inefficient processes), not a paid professional. Systems like electric grid, internal water management (anti-flood) shouldn't…

> Systems like electric grid, internal water management (anti-flood) shouldn't be lean, they should be antifragile. How do you make those systems antifragile rather than simply highly resilient?

Step 1: read a book by nnt

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#782

Post by folmar »

brewdad wrote: post #771
bsder wrote: post #714

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's one reason it's a good idea to always have some cash at home. Most places are so dependent upon electricity that they can't even take cash during a blackout. And they don't even have the mechanical machines to take a credit card imprint anymore.

The last of my raised number credit cards went away last month. Those old machines will only get a blank rectangle from me. Sad, because I did actually use one of those about 3 years ago when a rural gas station had power but no network.

Network is not required for mag-strip or emv operations, but the terminal has to be configured accordingly (and has to have some way to send batch of transactions for settling). It's less common now, but fully supported.

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#783

Post by otikik »

everfrustrated wrote: post #361
ksec wrote: post #110

I saw it on twitter and had to go to BBC to make sure this isn't some joke or hoax. 2025 and we have National level power cuts? I know it may be rare but I think some day we really need to move or mandate every single flat / home / apartment / living places to have a 12 - 24 hours backup battery included. Something that has 10K+ Cycles, durable and non-flammable. Not only does it make sure our modern lives without su…

Spot a European at a hundred paces by their reflex that anything happens the _government_ must do something. If electricity is that important to you, buy your _own_ resilience. Tesla powerwalls and non-tesla equivalents have been available for ages.

"Don't expect the government to do anything, give money to big corporations instead"

And then he chooses the one big corporation which has a guy in the government.

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#784

Post by youniverse »

dijit wrote: post #275
libertine wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The crazy thing is how is Twitter still being used to communicate these events.

Agreed. It's crazy how momentum can carry a business. To use a potentially controversial example, Microsoft products (Office, Windows) are still extremely entrenched despite the overwhelming majority of knowledgable people agreeing that they're on a steep downward trajectory and the alternatives have long since surpassed them.. leading to this[0] recent video from Pewdiepie... [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVI…

Wait til you hear that yahoo and aol still exist

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#785

Post by ForOldHack »

r3trohack3r wrote: post #737
tpmoney wrote: post #716

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The words "it's a miracle it works at all" routinely popped up in those conversations, which is... something you don't want to hear about any sort of power generation - especially not nuclear - but it's true. Funny thing is, those are the exact words I use when talking to people about networking. And realistically anytime I dig deep into the underlying details of any big enough system I walk away with that impressi…

This is one of the key insights in my early SRE career that changed how I viewed software engineering at scale. Components aren’t reliable. The whole thing might be duct tape and popsicle sticks. But the trick for SRE work is to create stability from unreliable components by isolating and routing around failures. It’s part of what made chaos engineering so effective. From randomly slowing down disk/network speed to u…

Message on a mug: "if carpenters built houses the way programmers write software, a woodpecker could destroy civilization."

The syncronasation of a power grid ... Wow.

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#787

Post by ForOldHack »

zdragnar wrote: post #598
morning-coffee wrote: post #587

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on how difficult it can be to start my chain-saw, snow-blower, and motorcycle after they've sat without being run for a while, I'd not recommend a gasoline-powered engine to be the only thing on stand-by.

Air compressors in adverse environments don't hold up that well either, without basic maintenance. I've had engines run seasonally for decades. It doesn't take much for them to keep working well, though doing nothing at all is an easy way to clog up the carburator.

You have to empty the compressor of wate. Some times a lot of water. I've seen a 33g tank with 25gs of water.

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#788

Post by eldaisfish »

bsder wrote: post #729
Hydrocarb0n wrote: post #658

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Harder mostly, See the frequency is set by huge rotating masses in the form of generators, and when the supply and demand is matched the frequency and voltage are stable, when demand dramatically increases it pulls the frequency and voltage down, which is effectively slowing the generators down as load / magnetic drag increases with current drawn. Having large inertial masses spinning actually helps smooth out freque…

> Harder mostly, See the frequency is set by huge rotating masses in the form of generators I'm not saying you're wrong, but this isn't obviously correct to me. Since solar going to a grid is completely dependent upon electronic DC->AC conversion, I would expect that it could follow a lot greater frequency deviation for a lot longer than a mechanical system that will literally rip itself apart on desync.

the person you replied to is mostly wrong.

The real reason that small scale solar PV is grid following (i.e. it depends on an external voltage and frequency reference) is that this ensures power line safety during a power outage. That's it.

An inverter can be programmed to start in the absence of an external reference and it can operate at a wide range of frequencies.

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#789

Post by bill3478 »

mike_hearn wrote: post #319

This sounds big enough to require a black start. Unfortunately, those are slow and difficult. If an entire nation trips offline then every generator station disconnects itself from the grid and the grid itself snaps apart into islands. To bring it back you have to disconnect consumer loads and then re-energize a small set of plants that have dedicated black start capability. Thermal plants require energy to start up…

A true black start has several factors (which make it difficult and notable):

1. The grid has to fully collapse with no possibility of being rescued by interconnection

2. As a result, a generation asset has to be started without external power or a grid frequency to synch to

3. An asset capable of this is usually a small one connected to a lower voltage network that has to then backfeed the higher voltage one

4. Due to the difficulty of balancing supply/demand during the process, the frequency can fluctuate violently with a high risk of tripping the system offline again

None of this applies in yesterday's case:

The rest of the European synchronous grid is working just fine.

News reports stated Spain restored power by reconnecting to France and Morocco.

By reestablishing the HV network first, they can directly restart the largest generation asset with normal procedures.

As they bring more and more load or generation online, there's little risk of big frequency fluctuations because the wider grid can absorb that.

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#790

Post by ForOldHack »

giantg2 wrote: post #739
morning-coffee wrote: post #587

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on how difficult it can be to start my chain-saw, snow-blower, and motorcycle after they've sat without being run for a while, I'd not recommend a gasoline-powered engine to be the only thing on stand-by.

It shouldn't be that bad. A little fogging oil when put away and drain all the fuel. Then a little starting fluid on the first couple start attempts. Usually they start fairly quickly if they're in decent shape. And that's just for pull starts. My electric start mower starts right up after even 5 months of not running with stabilizer in the fuel.

God bless Lucas stablier, and damn Joseph Lucas, prince of darkness. Any chance the stuff in Spain is made in England?
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