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Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

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Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#781

Post by calf »

lumost wrote: post #611
skhunted wrote: post #491

I’ve been teaching in higher education for 30 years and am soon retiring. I teach math. In every math course there is massive amounts of cheating on everything that is graded that is not proctored in a classroom setting. Locking down browsers and whatnot does not prevent cheating. The only solution is to require face-to-face proctored exams and not allow students to use technology of any kind while taking the test. B…

My personal take, we’ve made the cost of failure to high and cheating too easy. As a student, the only thing the next institution will see is GPA, school, major. Roughly in that order. If the cost of not getting an A is exclusion from future opportunities- then students will reject exclusion by taking easier classes or cheating. As someone who studied physics and came out with a 2.7 GPA due to studying what I wanted…

The person above you teaches higher ed, and yet cannot articulate what you just did. Cheating isn't the problem, the system is.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#782

Post by BobaFloutist »

itishappy wrote: post #657
jeroenhd wrote: post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion, it strongly depends on what Grammarly is being used for. For a physics paper, that's not a huge problem. For an English writing assignment, that's cheating. Banning AI tools like Grammarly for both is probably the best solution as your physics paper now becomes an extra training exercise for your English paper. Writing essays isn't just about your ideas. It's also a tool to teach communication skills.…

> For an English writing assignment, that's cheating. Whoops, with that little comment I suspect you've invalidated most English papers written in the past 2 decades. Certainly all of mine! Thanks spellcheck.

Grammarly is very different from vanilla spellcheck.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#783

Post by Aunche »

lumost wrote: post #611
skhunted wrote: post #491

I’ve been teaching in higher education for 30 years and am soon retiring. I teach math. In every math course there is massive amounts of cheating on everything that is graded that is not proctored in a classroom setting. Locking down browsers and whatnot does not prevent cheating. The only solution is to require face-to-face proctored exams and not allow students to use technology of any kind while taking the test. B…

My personal take, we’ve made the cost of failure to high and cheating too easy. As a student, the only thing the next institution will see is GPA, school, major. Roughly in that order. If the cost of not getting an A is exclusion from future opportunities- then students will reject exclusion by taking easier classes or cheating. As someone who studied physics and came out with a 2.7 GPA due to studying what I wanted…

> As a student, the only thing the next institution will see is GPA, school, major. Roughly in that order.

At least for my CS degree, this surprisingly wasn't the case. I remember our freshman class advisor gave a speech that said that grades don't really matter so long as if you pass, but we all laughed and dismissed him. I ended up getting a big tech internship with a ~2.8 GPA and an even better full time job with a ~3.2.

Obviously, your mileage may vary. I graduated in a hot tech market from a prestigious university with a reputation of being difficult. Even so, overall, almost all of my classmates were stressed over grades significantly more than they needed to be.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#784

Post by Syonyk »

clarebear123 wrote: post #773
Syonyk wrote: post #769

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anything big endian. unsigned int x = 0x01020304; unsigned char *c = (unsigned char*)&x; Assume x is stored at 0x100. On a little endian architecture (x86, most modern ARM systems, etc), it will be stored in memory as [04][03][02][01], from bytes 0x100 to 0x103. If you assign char c to the address of x (0x100), it will read one byte, which is 0x4. However, on a big endian system, that same value would be stored in me…

Do you know if compilers are smart enough to return 04 even on big-endian architectures nowadays? For some reason I'm under the impression that (at least clang and gcc) are able to change this from "first byte in x" to "least significant byte in x" but don't actually know why I think that. Maybe embedded compilers typically don't?

No, and it would be wrong for it to do so, because you've given it a very explicit set of instructions about what to do: "Give me the value of the byte of memory at the start of x."

To do what you're asking, you'd do something like this:

  unsigned char c = (unsigned char)x;
That will give you the low order byte of x. But to do that, on a big endian system, when you've told it to get you the byte at the base address of x, is simply wrong behavior. At least in C. I can't speak to higher level languages since I don't work in them.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#785

Post by [deleted] »

clarebear123 wrote: post #773
Syonyk wrote: post #769

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anything big endian. unsigned int x = 0x01020304; unsigned char *c = (unsigned char*)&x; Assume x is stored at 0x100. On a little endian architecture (x86, most modern ARM systems, etc), it will be stored in memory as [04][03][02][01], from bytes 0x100 to 0x103. If you assign char c to the address of x (0x100), it will read one byte, which is 0x4. However, on a big endian system, that same value would be stored in me…

Do you know if compilers are smart enough to return 04 even on big-endian architectures nowadays? For some reason I'm under the impression that (at least clang and gcc) are able to change this from "first byte in x" to "least significant byte in x" but don't actually know why I think that. Maybe embedded compilers typically don't?

[deleted]

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#786

Post by skhunted »

calf wrote: post #781
lumost wrote: post #611

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My personal take, we’ve made the cost of failure to high and cheating too easy. As a student, the only thing the next institution will see is GPA, school, major. Roughly in that order. If the cost of not getting an A is exclusion from future opportunities- then students will reject exclusion by taking easier classes or cheating. As someone who studied physics and came out with a 2.7 GPA due to studying what I wanted…

The person above you teaches higher ed, and yet cannot articulate what you just did. Cheating isn't the problem, the system is.

Can't or didn't? I had a different message to convey. You can't understand that. Or perhaps, you didn't understand that. Can't or didn't?

I reiterate:

But even requiring in person proctored exams is not the full solution. Students are not used to doing the necessary work to learn. They are used to doing the necessary work to pass. And that work is increasingly cheating. It’s a clusterfuck. I have calculus students who don’t know how to work with fractions. If we did truly devise a system that prevents cheating we’ll see that a very high percentage of current college students are not ready to be truly college educated.

K-12 needs to be changed as well.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#787

Post by lucianbr »

auggierose wrote: post #738
ckastner wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. Quoting article 22 [1]: > The data subject shall have the right not to be subject to a decision based solely on automated processing [...] [1]: https://gdpr.eu/article-22-automated-individual-decision-mak...

So if an automated decision happens, and the reviewer looks for a second at it, and says, good enough, that will be OK according to GDPR. Don't see what GDPR solves here.

Well I guess the theory is that you could go to court, and the court would be reasonable and say "this 1 second look does not fulfill the requirement, you need to actually use human judgement and see what was going on there". Lots of discussions regarding FAANG malicious compliance have shown this is how high courts work in EU. When there is political will.

But if you're a nobody, and can't afford to go to court against Deutsche Bank for example, of course you're SOL. EU has some good parts, but it's still a human government.

It's especially problematic since a good chunk of those "flagged" are actually doing something nefarious, and both courts and government will consider that "mostly works" is a good outcome. One or ten unlucky citizens are just the way the world works, as long as it's not someone with money or power or fame.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#789

Post by bombcar »

Aunche wrote: post #783
lumost wrote: post #611

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My personal take, we’ve made the cost of failure to high and cheating too easy. As a student, the only thing the next institution will see is GPA, school, major. Roughly in that order. If the cost of not getting an A is exclusion from future opportunities- then students will reject exclusion by taking easier classes or cheating. As someone who studied physics and came out with a 2.7 GPA due to studying what I wanted…

> As a student, the only thing the next institution will see is GPA, school, major. Roughly in that order. At least for my CS degree, this surprisingly wasn't the case. I remember our freshman class advisor gave a speech that said that grades don't really matter so long as if you pass, but we all laughed and dismissed him. I ended up getting a big tech internship with a ~2.8 GPA and an even better full time job with…

When you graduate college all that people see is the degree; unless you go to graduate school and then they will look at grades but will notice many other things much more.

Going from high school to college grades are looked at a bit more, but that's because that, the essay, and the SAT are all they have.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#790

Post by alasdair_ »

stanford_labrat wrote: post #663
aniviacat wrote: post #613

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I studied for a popular degree at one of the largest universities in Germany. I never had a course be taught by multiple professors. If a course had many attendants, the room just got bigger. But that's just my personal experience. I don't know if it's different at other large universities.

Ironically enough, our lecture halls were simply not big enough. The space capped out at around 300-600 people and for popular topics such as programming 101 every semester would easily have 1500+ enrolled.

The difference is that in Europe, you apply to take a specific subject at university, like Computer Science, and there are only so many spots available so that effectively caps the class sizes. You don't have a bunch of other people taking the class that are not working on that specific degree.
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