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This is a teenager

pudding.cool

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Re: This is a teenager

#781

Post by Red_Leaves_Flyy »

tatrajim wrote: post #646
llm_trw wrote: post #633

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Schools in the US cost more than schools in any other developed nation. Every institution in the US has been taken over by careerists and credentialists who produce nothing of value and are a drain on the system. For a simple example in our area look at twitter: we were told the servers would catch fire, the end times will be upon us and cats will live with dogs. Instead the servers kept chugging along just as well a…

As an anecdote on the topic of education, as a US Peace Corps Volunteer in rural South Korea in the 1970s, I routinely visited secondary schools that (at the time) were little more than drab warehouses for large (-70 students/class) using ragged textbooks and ancient furniture. Spirits were high, though, and these farm kids were successfully learning math through basic differential calculus plus a daunting array of o…

See my highest level comment for a discussion of why blaming the family is intellectually lazy.

Re: This is a teenager

#782

Post by Red_Leaves_Flyy »

monero-xmr wrote: post #667
Red_Leaves_Flyy wrote: post #606

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When do the greater communities need to pay their dues? Schools cost money to run but taxpayers balk and cry over every cent increase. There are crumbling schools with toxic air and water that lack adequate HVAC paying their teachers unlivable salaries. This is the result of neglect to preserve and invest which is a condemnation of those who allowed such neglect on their watch when they should have championed such pl…

As a counterpoint, Boston spends more per student than every other city ($31.3k in 2023 dollars): https://www.bostonglobe.com/2023/05/30/metro/boston-now-spen... . But the outcomes are quite poor. How can society justify spending more on the same institutions that have miserable outcomes? In the private sector, less revenue forces belt-tightening, purchasing software and tools that enhance productivity, and ultimatel…

The families need money. Kids from impoverished and broken homes make poor students that ruin the experience for the everyone in the school. Their misery is contagious. Throwing it at schools won’t solve it because teachers are doing everything they can to support kids but teachers have no control outside the school day. Increase foster care budgets and social welfare programs. If America can afford Musk naziposting on Twitter we can afford to eliminate poverty, hunger, homelessness, and untreated /under treated medical conditions.

Re: This is a teenager

#783

Post by thegrimmest »

atoav wrote: post #697
cameldrv wrote: post #364

The punchline is this: "It's 2021. The research participants are in their late-30s now, which means they've had plenty of time to shape their own destinies. But we can clearly see that the experiences of their childhood had a huge effect on their financial situation as adults. It also has an effect on virtually everything else in their lives." You cannot infer the direction of causality from this data, i.e. that the…

If one feels unhappy about the causality link between a good childhood and a better life as an adult please remember that we are talking about statistical effects here. If more people who were bullied end up in unfortunate positions that doesn't imply direct causality, it implies that people whose live paths lead to bad places often had being bullied as a station on it. There will always be the tail ends of the stati…

Hard disagree with utilitarian interventionism. It violates core liberal fundamentals. People have the right to be as involved of parents as they see fit, and to raise their children with values of their choosing. Economic and social outcomes are not universal moral values. The collective has no right to impose their utilitarian best-guess on the individual. People should have a right to reject them and raise illiterate children in forest school.

Free society is a liberal ecosystem, where participants are continually succeeding and failing. The authority required to mount a collective response to these inequalities is too susceptible to corruption, and represents injustice in its departure from liberalism. Not to mention that well-meaning interventions by federated authority have an abysmal track record.

Re: This is a teenager

#784

Post by causal »

naasking wrote: post #653
drawkward wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citation, please?

Studies of identical twins raised apart, like MISTRA, show remarkable similarities in life outcomes and big five personality traits. There's a big genetic component, and the time spent with parents is dwarfed by time spent with others once they start school, so the role of parenting style on life outcomes would have to have a significant outsized effect compared to all other life experiences. If I recall correctly, a…

This isn't really a citation, and your twins-study outcomes argument blaming genetics also undermines every other conclusion of TFA.

Re: This is a teenager

#785

Post by naasking »

causal wrote: post #784
naasking wrote: post #653

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Studies of identical twins raised apart, like MISTRA, show remarkable similarities in life outcomes and big five personality traits. There's a big genetic component, and the time spent with parents is dwarfed by time spent with others once they start school, so the role of parenting style on life outcomes would have to have a significant outsized effect compared to all other life experiences. If I recall correctly, a…

This isn't really a citation, and your twins-study outcomes argument blaming genetics also undermines every other conclusion of TFA.

MISTRA is a citation, it's a well-known name, just Google the study. Also:

1. TFA article talked only about correlations, because that's all they have.

2. Genetics influences all of TFA factors as well.

3. TFA discussed "adverse experiences", "parents involved" and "family risk scores". Guess what I said: parenting really only has a significant effect in cases of neglect and abuse. Sounds like we agree.

Re: This is a teenager

#786

Post by flir »

thegrimmest wrote: post #783
atoav wrote: post #697

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If one feels unhappy about the causality link between a good childhood and a better life as an adult please remember that we are talking about statistical effects here. If more people who were bullied end up in unfortunate positions that doesn't imply direct causality, it implies that people whose live paths lead to bad places often had being bullied as a station on it. There will always be the tail ends of the stati…

Hard disagree with utilitarian interventionism. It violates core liberal fundamentals. People have the right to be as involved of parents as they see fit, and to raise their children with values of their choosing. Economic and social outcomes are not universal moral values. The collective has no right to impose their utilitarian best-guess on the individual. People should have a right to reject them and raise illiter…

Bearing in mind we're talking about bullying here, which interventions are going to trample your fundamental civil rights?

Unless we're going with a reductio ad absurdum panopticon solution, I can't think of any way in which more robust interventions in bullying would be a bad thing.

Re: This is a teenager

#787

Post by thegrimmest »

flir wrote: post #786
thegrimmest wrote: post #783

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hard disagree with utilitarian interventionism. It violates core liberal fundamentals. People have the right to be as involved of parents as they see fit, and to raise their children with values of their choosing. Economic and social outcomes are not universal moral values. The collective has no right to impose their utilitarian best-guess on the individual. People should have a right to reject them and raise illiter…

Bearing in mind we're talking about bullying here, which interventions are going to trample your fundamental civil rights? Unless we're going with a reductio ad absurdum panopticon solution, I can't think of any way in which more robust interventions in bullying would be a bad thing.

People have the right to be and to raise bullies as long as their behaviour is nonviolent. As tasteless as it is, there is no law against socially excluding and humiliating people. Nor should there be.

Re: This is a teenager

#788

Post by flir »

thegrimmest wrote: post #787
flir wrote: post #786

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bearing in mind we're talking about bullying here, which interventions are going to trample your fundamental civil rights? Unless we're going with a reductio ad absurdum panopticon solution, I can't think of any way in which more robust interventions in bullying would be a bad thing.

People have the right to be and to raise bullies as long as their behaviour is nonviolent. As tasteless as it is, there is no law against socially excluding and humiliating people. Nor should there be.

Why the limit on physical violence? Why's that the universal line in the sand that society should enforce?

Re: This is a teenager

#789

Post by thegrimmest »

flir wrote: post #788
thegrimmest wrote: post #787

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People have the right to be and to raise bullies as long as their behaviour is nonviolent. As tasteless as it is, there is no law against socially excluding and humiliating people. Nor should there be.

Why the limit on physical violence? Why's that the universal line in the sand that society should enforce?

Because it's unambiguous, already a core liberal value, and because the enforcement mechanisms for violating the law are invariably physical (arrest, imprisonment). "Free" means "Free from the threat of illegitimate violence", not "Free from the possibility of having your feelings hurt". It would be unjust to impose physical consequences for non-physically-infringing actions.

Re: This is a teenager

#790

Post by bccdee »

cameldrv wrote: post #364

The punchline is this: "It's 2021. The research participants are in their late-30s now, which means they've had plenty of time to shape their own destinies. But we can clearly see that the experiences of their childhood had a huge effect on their financial situation as adults. It also has an effect on virtually everything else in their lives." You cannot infer the direction of causality from this data, i.e. that the…

> I remember reading about how in Chicago someone had noticed that kids who did better had more books at home, so they decided to give poor kids books.

The problem here was not trying to infer causality from population-level data, but rather insufficiently controlling that data for correlated variables. If that study had controlled for the income and education of those kids' parents, it would have been much more able to predict the actual impact of giving kids books.

This visual essay thing doesn't present a particularly detailed data analysis, but I wouldn't be surprised if the original study, being properly academic, did dive into this kind of regression analysis.

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