'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

Post by theoldlove » Wed, Dec 13, 2023, 2:49 AM UTC

edanm wrote: post #339

nielsbot wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a longer version of "Israel has the right to defend itself". Maybe Israel shouldn't exist but since it does I think we can agree it has a right to defend itself since if it doesn't innocents will be harmed/killed/raped. That said, even in war, there are long established rules of engagement in war designed to protect (as possible) non-combatants. Israel is not respecting these rules at all. And beyond the insa…

> That said, even in war, there are long established rules of engagement in war designed to protect (as possible) non-combatants. Israel is not respecting these rules at all. Israel absolutely should be respecting the rules of war. As far as I know, it is. People often like to claim that it's not, hinting at some vague "war crimes" or claiming that Israel is targeting civilians, but there is no proof of that happenin…

Post by js212 » Wed, Dec 13, 2023, 3:01 AM UTC

ah27182 wrote: post #775

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #628

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wasn't this Hamas's goal all along? They were losing their reason for existing, so they figured out a way reinvigorate hostilities? It looks like they succeeded. > If I lost a loved one at the hands of Israel in such malicious and careless manner, I'm never going to not consider Israel as nothing but an enemy. You could rewrite this as: If I lost a loved one at the hands of Hamas/Israel in such malicious and careless…

The cycle ends once there is true justice. That is: human rights for all (Israelis and Palestinians) and reparations made to those who have been forcibly displaced and killed ever since this conflict began.

Post by huytersd » Wed, Dec 13, 2023, 3:03 AM UTC

mvdtnz wrote: post #746

xg15 wrote: post #525

I don't want to start another top-level thread on this topic, as it is contentious enough already - but just as an aside, the UN General Assembly just passed a (symbolic) resolution calling for an immediate ceasefire with 153 to 10, an even stronger majority than the last resolution. Of course UN votes are always subject to all kinds of political considerations and power dynamics and the saying "nations have no frien…

There was a ceasefire. IDF ended it because Hamas fired rockets and didn't hold up their end of the hostage release bargain. There was a ceasefire before that, which Hamas broke by invading Israel and torturing, raping and murdering over a thousand innocent civilians.

Post by s1artibartfast » Wed, Dec 13, 2023, 3:13 AM UTC

tsimionescu wrote: post #453

nahumfarchi wrote: post #155

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No, I don't think that is a reasonable take at all. 1. This is warfare, not civil law. Hamas, which is the sovereign in Gaza (there has been no Israeli military presence there for years), commited an act of war in which hundreds were killed, raped, and kidnapped. Israel, as a state, has the moral duty to fight back and make sure this never happens again. Otherwise, it breaks the most basic contract between citizen an…

You seem to be arguing from a bizarre perspective that Israel is the defender here. In reality, Israel is the aggressor, and Palestine is the state that has been under occupation and illegal blockade for decades. October 7th was an (illegal, abhorrent and criminal!) act of retaliation against previous Israeli aggressions, not an unprovoked attack. If Ukraine were to bomb a Russian city during the current war, no one…

Post by js212 » Wed, Dec 13, 2023, 3:16 AM UTC

leereeves wrote: post #161

pgeorgi wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. It has to happen in the same time as the agression There are still rockets flying out of Gaza into Israel. > 2. Its only purpose is to defend against the agression The people sending those rockets are in Gaza, so to stop them, Israel has to go there. > 3. The defense has to be proportionate That one is regularly the most difficult point of contention in individual self-defense. Hamas essentially goes by this pla…

> what should be done about the guy holding a loaded gun at his hostage's head while covering himself in babys? It's a difficult situation, but I doubt the answer would be to shoot the guy and two babies, which is analogous to Israel's response, if you believe their claim that 1/3 of the people they've killed were Hamas.