The elderly are becoming homeless at a rate not seen since the Great Depression • Hacker News Board

Re: The elderly are becoming homeless at a rate not seen since the Great Depression

#781

Post by TeMPOraL » Mon, Sep 25, 2023, 6:21 PM UTC

ETH_start wrote: post #764

TeMPOraL wrote: post #757

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the markets in goods and services seem to evolve towards hollowing out the middle: companies offer either bottom-tier garbage or luxury price (but not necessarily luxury quality) options for those not price-sensitive. What makes people think housing is different? That with unencumbered ability to build, we'll end up with decent-quality, livable, mid-tier apartments? Other markers show we should expect a mix o…

Not true. Automobiles have become vastly better at all price points over the last 50 years. Safer, more fuel efficient and longer-lasting. The same applies to smartphones, PCs, televisions, etc. And laser eye surgery. And passenger air travel since the Carter administration de-centralized (de-regulated) it in the late 1970s.

I won't comment much on automobiles - I don't buy new, and don't know anyone who buys new. It's all used market, and we're dreading the day the newest, touchscreen-controlled cars will be all that's available. But it appears to me that this market is highly regulated - safety, fuel efficiency and longevity still hit the bare minimum, just the legal minima have been tightened over the years.

Laser eye surgery - I wasn't even aware this is a category and there is much to differentiate between service providers on the surgery specifically. Plus, it's another tightly-regulated space, countering natural market tendencies.

Passenger air travel - you must be traveling first-class only to not notice that everything below is bottom-tier and getting noticeably worse every year. Sure, it's more affordable - I don't dispute that - but it's a question of how bad can quality go before it trumps price.

Smartphones, televisions - all examples of what I'm talking about. A huge amount of bottom-tier products, a few high-end flagship products. There's a degree of market segmentation so there's still some middle-tier options, but my impression is, they're rapidly dragged to the bottom.

As specific examples of what I have in mind, most of which I observed personally: everything not regulated about private healthcare; bikes and bike parts; food across the board; manual tools and power tools; clothes; toys; just about every commodity electronics. It's all low-quality noname brands, low-quality fake pseudo-brands, brands tricking people with old reputation, then nothing at mid-tier, then pricey brands that didn't start "capitalizing on their reputation" just yet.

Overall, what I'm saying is that the natural tendency of the market is to optimize offerings to be the cheapest and shittiest the market can bear - and I think this is a problem; there's a mid-point we can't seem to be able to keep in established markets. And in arguments for deregulating housing, I don't see anything addressing this tendency.

Re: The elderly are becoming homeless at a rate not seen since the Great Depression

#782

Post by downrightmike » Mon, Sep 25, 2023, 6:24 PM UTC

spir wrote: post #234

escapedmoose wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Among my friends seeking to buy houses, the greater problem is the ability of large companies to buy up whatever is on the market, which they then immediately turn into a rental. It’s nearly impossible to compete with a company who will pay $50k over asking price, in cash, for the house you’re trying to get. Comparatively, immigrants don’t have the purchasing power to compete, so saying they’re the problem is a weird…

You only perceive corporate landlords as the greater problem because we're not living in the counterfactual reality where there are millions of new apartments that are inexpensive, tiny, safe, quiet, modern, clean, dignified, and well-located. In pretty much every major city in North America, it is illegal or there is too much red tape to build the affordable housing people actually want. Why is it that living in a t…

The answer is non-market housing. Housing made to pay for itself, but not profit from. Vienna has 60% non-market housing, which puts a huge damper on what the market can charge. Which is why we will likely never see it until the boomers and the boomer minded are long gone.

Re: The elderly are becoming homeless at a rate not seen since the Great Depression

#783

Post by thehappypm » Mon, Sep 25, 2023, 6:25 PM UTC

Clubber wrote: post #691

thehappypm wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh god please no. It’s already on the way to being insolvent

We should fund it better and remove the income cap of $164K.

The income cap is insanity. And i say that as a beneficiary of it

Re: The elderly are becoming homeless at a rate not seen since the Great Depression

#784

Post by Draiken » Mon, Sep 25, 2023, 6:27 PM UTC

ushtaritk421 wrote: post #760

Draiken wrote: post #689

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that what lobbying is all about? You effectively have companies paying politicians to keep these zoning laws that keep the rents as high as possible. Profit above all else. Arguments that boil down to "government policy" can basically be translated to "big companies policies". Whether it's through illegal or legal bribing (lobbying), it's what we see after decades of influence.

It’s big companies but it’s also (mostly?) the nice retired insurance agents and school teachers who like their quiet neighborhood and the fact that the house they bought 30 years ago can be sold for 4x its inflation-adjusted purchase price when they’re ready.

100% agreed. Our individualism and own greed are also a great contributing factor. After-all we ultimately elect those politicians and also have to profit similar to a company (hopefully not at all costs though).

Re: The elderly are becoming homeless at a rate not seen since the Great Depression

#785

Post by downrightmike » Mon, Sep 25, 2023, 6:29 PM UTC

rg111 wrote: post #645

blairbeckwith wrote: post #620

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think when most people use "safe" in this context, they mean "comfortable" or "psychologically comfortable". Nobody enjoys sitting beside someone tweaking and shitting themselves, even if it's perfectly safe.

Exactly. I don't ever mind public transport. I have used public transport in multiple areas of the planet. There are two quips: 1. You have to be there in someone else's time. You can't have 5 or 10 or 30 minutes if something comes up. 2. What you say. I don't want to rub my body with people who are wearing dirty clothes, smell, and has god-knows-what liquid on their clothes who might choose to cough without using th…

If the rail comes every 15 minutes, you know you can plan to be a little early. Not hard at all.

Re: The elderly are becoming homeless at a rate not seen since the Great Depression

#786

Post by UncleOxidant » Mon, Sep 25, 2023, 6:31 PM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #759

UncleOxidant wrote: post #680

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Seattle is the perfect example. If we have high speed rail between Bellingham and Seattle it would dramatically change the dynamics of the housing situation in Seattle. It's not like Bellingham is affordable anymore. Median price is ~$650K. (People looking to escape effects of climate change in parts of the country that are becoming hotter are moving to places like Bellingham) Yes, high speed rail and other forms o…

Bellingham isn't very affordable, but Marysville and Darington are still kind of affordable. And those two places aren't that far north of Everett.

Ok, but if high speed rail from Seattle to/from those towns was added they wouldn't stay affordable for very long. In order for that not to happen lots of housing units would need to be added to those areas.

Re: The elderly are becoming homeless at a rate not seen since the Great Depression

#787

Post by 3seashells » Mon, Sep 25, 2023, 6:34 PM UTC

jongjong wrote: post #16

Part of the problem is government regulation. In some places, it's almost impossible to build new houses due to regulations. Some portion of the population wants to see house prices continue to increase and they will vote for politicians who will implement policies which will support that agenda. Of course this happens at the expense of another, also large portion of the population who do not own a house and have to…

More houses, more area, more highways, more traffic, more jams. This whole solution was tried again and again, and failed predictably. What works is denser, more life able cities, instead of renimating 60s visions of suburbia to escape the problems inflicted by the.. 60s visions of suburbia. It's dead Jim..

Re: The elderly are becoming homeless at a rate not seen since the Great Depression

#788

Post by onepointsixC » Mon, Sep 25, 2023, 6:35 PM UTC

adra wrote: post #353

J_Shelby_J wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Building any housing is building affordable housing. Adding one home at the top of the price range, increases the number of affordable homes for someone, somewhere, by at least one.

Come tell that to the residents of Vancouver. We've had countless luxury condos made year after year for two decades and we're at around 3k/mo for a 1br.. tell us more about how building units that "regular" people can never afford that it's always helping them.

Where exactly do you think the people who afford those luxury condo live right now? In the woods? And just because "countless" have been built doesn't meant that there have been enough to meet demand.

Re: The elderly are becoming homeless at a rate not seen since the Great Depression

#789

Post by gremlinsinc » Mon, Sep 25, 2023, 6:35 PM UTC

rthomas6 wrote: post #354

I was holding out on joining the wave of doomerism that pervades everyone's mindset so thoroughly nowadays, but I'm starting to be won over. Between economic things like this and the apparent infeasibility of carbon capture (meaning a likely 3+ degree C increase in global temperature (and the resulting catastrophic effects that not even activists talk about because the scenario is too bleak to imagine)), I am startin…

reality isn't doomerism, really just is.... reality. Those who call it doomerism live near a river called denial, apparently it's a pretty popular place these days.

They either don't want to think about it, or they think a man is going to descend from the heavens and save them, I wouldn't count on that happening.

There's room for hope we can science our way out or at least ai might be able to find solutions we can't think of, assuming it doesn't kill us first.

Re: The elderly are becoming homeless at a rate not seen since the Great Depression

#790

Post by antisthenes » Mon, Sep 25, 2023, 6:36 PM UTC

rootusrootus wrote: post #270

fnimick wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Building regulations yes, zoning regulations no. There's a community near me that has enormous housing shortages and yet they maintain a 1 acre minimum lot per single family house only to "preserve character". Does that sound like a safety issue to you?

That sounds very unique, to the point of implausibility. Any community with a 1 acre minimum lot by definition doesn't have anything like an enormous housing shortage. That's rural density.

> Any community with a 1 acre minimum lot by definition doesn't have anything like an enormous housing shortage. That's rural density.

It could or it couldn't. It depends on how many people currently live there and how many people are _trying_ to live there, and how much is available for sale at any given time (e.g. real estate liquidity).