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"Lighten up"

therealkatie.net

781–790 of 829 posts

Re: "Lighten up"

#781
post #711
post #689

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then why discuss her article at all? She has made up her mind and quit, and that is all there is to it?

One thing would be to discuss, as a startup owner, how would one prevent this kind of thing happening in their startup. How to create a culture where women aren't treated like that so that highly talented women are more likely to join and stay. Or is this something that we shouldn't hope to achieve because nerds will always be like that? Judging by other comments here (and recent sexism issues in tech), it seems like…

You simply assume that she is right, but you have only heard her part of the story. Obviously I don't want to defend the right to leer at work, but it seems impossible to accommodate everybody's preferences for a workplace. Therefore just raising one persons preferences above the preferences of all other people seems questionable to me.

For example in other sexism threads the ubiquitous Star Wars posters and stuff like that came up. Should Star Wars posters really be banned in programmers offices, just so that some more women programmers might feel more at home. I don't know...

Re: "Lighten up"

#782
post #729

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you can pay attention to what does offend people and not do those things again in the future Yes, and following this course results in outcome #2: insufferable blandness. The range of things people find offensive is staggering. Indeed, many are offended by the notion that sometimes you just need to grow a thicker skin—which kind of proves the point.

Are you really saying that there's no middle ground between being actively offensive and being insufferably bland? Context matters, there's a difference between what's appropriate in a professional setting and what's appropriate in (for example) art. Please, be as edgy and un-PC as you want, just don't do it in the workplace.

Are you really saying that there's no middle ground between being actively offensive and being insufferably bland?

The short answer is, yes, there is a middle ground, but it won't stay "middle" for long: the set of "offensive" things expands with time. Many jokes and phrases that were part of the inoffensive "middle ground" twenty or thirty years ago are now considered offensive. To the politically correct, this is mere progress, but to those who oppose political correctness it instead represents cultural and linguistic decline.

I ran into a small example of this recently when discussing the movie "Harold and Kumar Go to White Castle". Specifically, I wanted to refer to the ethnic background of Harold. I couldn't remember offhand exactly which country his ancestors came from, so I described him as "Asian". The problem is that, in the modern lexicon, Kumar (being of Indian extraction) is also "Asian". Thirty years ago I could have described Harold as "Oriental" without causing offense, but that changed some time in the mid- to late '80s. (I distinctly remember, some time around 1990, overhearing a high-school teacher instruct one of my Vietnamese classmates not to refer to herself as "Oriental". She was comfortable with the term; he was not. His side won, and we have lost some linguistic precision because of it.)

To cite another example, from 1555 until the 1960's the word "Negro" was a neutral term signifying a person of black sub-Saharan African descent, at which point it was replaced by "black" (or "Black"). This lasted until 1988, when (in a domestic context) "African-American" became the preferred term. Meanwhile, "colored person" was also once a neutral phrase (as evidenced by the NAACP), but now uttering it in the workplace (or in a joke) can get you fired. In contrast, the term "person of color", which is almost semantically identical to "colored person", is not only inoffensive but is the preferred term among the PC cognoscenti. It's an achievement that Orwell himself could hardly have surpassed.

Re: "Lighten up"

#783
I think both behaviors provide continuation to the problem. On one side, the people who is actually sexist, or racist, or just believe in stereotypes. In the another, the people who also believes that the rest of the people are biased towards their sex, skin color or condition. Ignoring information that is not interesting or useful for us is the best tool we have to not be hurt by other people so easily, get stronger and prepared to survive in an unfair society and preserve freedom of speech. Nobody wants to be negatively discriminated, but does somebody think positive discrimination is the solution? I believe is the same social problem after all.

Re: "Lighten up"

#784
post #606

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not attracted to my sister or my mom, though. Sure you could say, just don't be attracted to co-workers, but it just isn't realistic (see other comments, 18% of committed couples met at work).

The best rule is to just keep it to yourself (at least until you're certain the attraction is reciprocated). Don't act on it, don't let it color your interactions or conclusions about her competence, good or bad. Its important to not objectify your co-workers, as that is the starting point of all sexism and sexual harrassment. And incidentally, since attractive women receive questionable attention all the time , your…

Thanks, I was asking more in general - I think many people could need that advice. Sadly, I rarely ever have female colleagues. But I am also not in the dating scene anymore, so it is not really a problem for me to ignore attractive colleagues atm.

Re: "Lighten up"

#785
post #87

You see, I have problem with posts like this. First I'm like - "Woah, I can't imagine someone would be so insensitive to make joke like this!" and get all fed up and upset. But then... then I freeze, because next example is something that I can imagine myself saying. "Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!" I... I'm at loss of words. I was trained during my teenage years, that it's coo…

"Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!"...As I'm getting older, I see how sexist and demeaning this is. At the risk of revealing myself to be a chauvinistic jerk, is this kind of response sexist and demeaning, or just inappropriate for the workplace? Why do women wear low-cut dresses if not to attract male attention (in the majority of cases)? Would it be sexist and demeaning for me to not…

I think if you are Brad Pitt or George Clooney (or some other desirable man), that comment is fun and flirtatious, otherwise it is creepy. If you are not Brad Pitt or George Clooney, you should make yourself invisible in the presence of women. Or maybe you could offer foot massages.

Re: "Lighten up"

#786
Is anyone else bothered by the fact that of the 752 comments on this thread at the moment probably >700 were written by men? Isn't it potentially sexist in and of itself to have a large discussion about this subject exclusively between men?

Re: "Lighten up"

#787
post #782

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you really saying that there's no middle ground between being actively offensive and being insufferably bland? Context matters, there's a difference between what's appropriate in a professional setting and what's appropriate in (for example) art. Please, be as edgy and un-PC as you want, just don't do it in the workplace.

Are you really saying that there's no middle ground between being actively offensive and being insufferably bland? The short answer is, yes, there is a middle ground, but it won't stay "middle" for long: the set of "offensive" things expands with time. Many jokes and phrases that were part of the inoffensive "middle ground" twenty or thirty years ago are now considered offensive. To the politically correct, this is m…

There's a difference, at least to me, about changing standards in language (which, as outsiders to particular communities can seem arbitrary and capricious-- wait a minute, "Queer is OK to say again?" and how is "person of color" materially different from "Colored person") and things like brazen workplace hostility as described in the original blog post.

A lot of being actively offensive is more than just the specific words you use but more about what you say with those words.

Even if you don't use any dangerous words, when the content of your message is sexist and demeaning such as "Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!" that's where the offense is. Telling someone to knock that shit off doesn't make us insufferably bland PC thought police, it makes us civilized human beings.

Re: "Lighten up"

#788
post #704

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me that this is where the men on the team can help: As a man, I'd volunteer to take notes. Of course, this may not be tempting, because you may be on the kind of team where you just know that, if you volunteer to do some thankless task, you'll be stuck with it forever. And that is an entirely different kind of problem. But it's a problem that should not be covered up by deploying sexism.

I don't understand the "as a man" part. That's further propagating the problem. I'd rather we point out "sexist behavior" to help make it stop vs introduce an even more subtler sexist behavior In your senario: You, as a man, aware that she as a women, can get treated differently, so you will then treat her differently based on that. You see, you are still treating her differently, where ultimately, no one treats her…

Where did I "treat her differently"? I'd like to think that if there was any other member of my team that was consistently getting stuck making tea and taking notes, I'd do the same for him. Indeed, I have done that in the past.

It's true that people, observing just this one incident in isolation, might conclude that I was "treating her differently" because she was female. I can't help that. I, too, am stuck in the society we have, the one where people make assumptions like you have just made, and as you point out it's not productive to tell people not to assume such things, no more than if I asked them not to think of an elephant. If anyone asks why I "treated her differently" I'll say what I just said: Team members are team members, none of them should be stuck with the boring stuff all the time unless they really enjoy making tea.

Meanwhile, I used the rather clumsy phrase "as a man" not because I enjoy writing clumsily, nor as some sort of political statement, but just to get the mental picture clear: I'm a guy, who looks like a nerdy guy, and when I make tea I look like a nerdy guy making tea. I suppose I could have left that ambiguous, as I usually do online - hey, on the internet nobody needs to know that you're really a beagle who can cite SICP and make tea - but in a conversation that's essentially about the optics of an in-person social interaction I felt it was kind of important that we all try to envision an actual room, with an actual team, one member of which is a middle-aged guy who is stepping out to make some tea.

Re: "Lighten up"

#789
post #594

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, women always get dressed with men in mind; it's just that it's so ingrained, they don't really think about it. Their concept of "looking good" is shaped by magazines and tv shows (still much more so that men, on average); and if you look at your average magazine, you'll see oozes of sex emanating from advertising and content. The concept of "looking good" in western society is equivalent to "looking sexy/de…

"Why would women's skirts emphasize one's ass otherwise?" See, that's the problem. You're sexualizing a woman's ass. A woman doesn't automatically consider her ass to be something sexual. Straight men do. An ass is an ass, and the fact that a man finds my ass sexual is not my concern. Nor do I want to be told about it. But I do like how that skirt looks on my ass. For me. My comfort is the focus, not somebody else's…

When I say fashion, I include all the press and showbiz world that live on selling beauty products, clothes and the like. "High" fashion is a tiny niche: Conde'-Nast is the mainstream; advertising companies are the mainstream; Hollywood is the mainstream. And they sell primarily sex; they sell it to me as a male but they sell it even more to you as a woman. Compare the ads you find on men-oriented magazines: they sell big cars, big watches, gizmos and

Re: "Lighten up"

#790
post #594

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, women always get dressed with men in mind; it's just that it's so ingrained, they don't really think about it. Their concept of "looking good" is shaped by magazines and tv shows (still much more so that men, on average); and if you look at your average magazine, you'll see oozes of sex emanating from advertising and content. The concept of "looking good" in western society is equivalent to "looking sexy/de…

Not true. We get dressed with other women in mind. We also shop off each other's bodies and generally take fashion cues from each other. This is why women in the Loop are wearing short skirts and strappy sandals and women in the far west suburbs wear print turtlenecks from Land's End.

Of course, because other women are competition. Or would you be so happy to meet three friends with the same exact dress, at some social occasion with other people in formal wear? Most males would love nothing better than to wear exactly what everybody else is.
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