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Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

theatlantic.com

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Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#781

Post by creata »

Aunche wrote: post #671
RoyalHenOil wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

If you had real empathy, you would understand how people would be upset that their streets are covered by used needles and feces rather than accuse them of being sociopaths. Anyways, I'm pretty sure GP was being facetious. If using drugs is were optimal choice for a bum, then, it would be a much better outcome for everyone involved if California diverted funding from million dollar per unit "affordable housing" into…

> Anyways, I'm pretty sure GP was being facetious.

I hope so: if "build a camp for them out in the desert" is serious, it is a horrible way to talk about other humans, no matter how upset you are.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#782

Post by nonethewiser »

makeitdouble wrote: post #769
nonethewiser wrote: post #737

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's difficult for me to overstate how much I disagree with you. > I don't need more people being shamed for being gay Well he never said anything about being gay. Perhaps you’re reading some other concerns into his comment. Imagine two worlds where there is no murder. The first has no murder because no one feels inclined to murder. The second has no murder because there are very strong rules which stop people who…

The 2nd has more people diversity than the 1st. You'd think no one wanting to murder you is the best state, but practically people will have strong feelings about a lot of things in life, and it's hard to imagine a healthy society where "that would look bad on me" is enough to restrain you from your deepest anger moments. Having no immediate way to murder you + an active police to protect you should be the barrier to…

> The 2nd has more people diversity than the 1st.

Is this a coy way of saying not all diversity is good? Sure you have more would-be-murderers but obviously Id take a less diverse group if thats the diversity.

My point with Japan was not about murders. They have laws against murder. Even still, the prevention mechanisms are weaker. Less lethal equipment and training, not positioned in schools, etc.

It was more about social expectations that are not enforced but are more strictly followed than in the west because of a sort of shame.

The point is not even that more social shaming is strictly better, just that it’s certainly a stronger guide rail on behavior than rules that people otherwise sont care about.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#783

Post by nonethewiser »

blackoil wrote: post #761
nonethewiser wrote: post #737

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's difficult for me to overstate how much I disagree with you. > I don't need more people being shamed for being gay Well he never said anything about being gay. Perhaps you’re reading some other concerns into his comment. Imagine two worlds where there is no murder. The first has no murder because no one feels inclined to murder. The second has no murder because there are very strong rules which stop people who…

It doesn't work selectively, if society can shame you into not taking drugs it will do so everything else non-confirming. In my society not valuing individual freedom girls have/had been shamed into not wearing jeans/skirts, going out for night movie show or even cutting hairs.

First, you are conflating being ashamed with people shaming them thers.

Second, it doesnt follow that shaming 1 thing means shaming everything. And surely you can recognize that there exist some things that people should be ashamed of?

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#784

Post by ajmurmann »

In Portland these policies clearly aren't working and I want dealing fentanyl and meth be punished. There are more nuanced problems going on that might play a large role in this policy taking. Lack of rehab facilities definitely is one of these factors. The Portland police also has largely stopped policing anything. I wonder how different things would look if even just all cars without license plates got stopped. It also doesn't help that even repeat offenders get released without bail. I genuinely wonder how different things would look if hard drugs were decriminalized, but all other laws were enforced properly.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#785

Post by Terr_ »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #518
Turskarama wrote: post #497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>life-long support for a drug addict is going to be significantly more expensive than throwing them in jail for a few years Citation needed, you might be underestimating how much it costs to jail someone. If a drug user actually manages to get clean (which with proper support, most can) then the cost of support is basically checking up on them a couple of times a year. Meanwhile they can hold down a job and live a no…

> That's as opposed to the significant costs of keeping someone in prison, which is significantly more than they would be earning if they were free. It's worse than that. If someone is working a productive job, even if they don't make much, they're doing something useful. Someone has their dishes washed or their floors swept and there is a surplus that accrues not only to the worker but also the rest of society. If s…

> even if they don't make much, they're doing something useful.

While I agree that the prison-scenario costs are probably underestimated and underappreciated... If we're going to try to measure the "doing something useful" part, we should also consider the other side of "doing something destructive to other people and property" part.

Someone could hold down a job and be cutting catalytic converters out of other people's cars.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#786

Post by gloosx »

K0balt wrote: post #520

The USA and a few other cultures have unfortunately devalued shame to the point where it holds nearly no cultural power. Shame is an important aspect of behaviour moderation, a negative emotion usefully experienced when doing something that breaks the social contract. Devaluing shame instad of targeting the parts of the contract that needed to be changed has cost us a critical tool for self moderation and has created…

Addiction is a perpetual Ouroboros of shame. It is essential to understand this truth before ever wanting to integrate more shame into this problem.

If one chooses addiction - well, it is an authority that moderates his behavior – the substance. Any shame will only make its rule stronger.

The infantilization of society is a myth, society never really grew up to the point of understanding the universal truth - that kindness, support, re-integration, participation, gratitude - these are our allies to fix the society problems - not shame, guilt, isolation and indifference.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#787

Post by chris_wot »

Solvency wrote: post #716
chris_wot wrote: post #636

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is good shame and bad shame. If you murder someone, then you should rightly feel shame. If you are gay, then you should not feel shame. Shame can work both ways.

LOL and who exactly do you think are the fair, wise, omnipotent arbiters of "good shame"? Religion? CNN? Fox News? The average person?

I’m pretty sure murder and rape are universally shame worthy acts.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#788

Post by AnthonyMouse »

bill_joy_fanboy wrote: post #598
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Should we make drugs illegal again and force people into rehab? You should make the negative behaviors associated with drug abuse illegal and force those people into rehab. Use all the drugs you want until you go to break some other law, then you get arrested and don't get to go home until you're clean.

Might it not be smart to prevent those crimes from happening by preventing drug use/abuse in the first place?

A precrime division doesn't belong in any law enforcement agency.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#789

Post by tayo42 »

oldpmfan wrote: post #646
K0balt wrote: post #520

The USA and a few other cultures have unfortunately devalued shame to the point where it holds nearly no cultural power. Shame is an important aspect of behaviour moderation, a negative emotion usefully experienced when doing something that breaks the social contract. Devaluing shame instad of targeting the parts of the contract that needed to be changed has cost us a critical tool for self moderation and has created…

I don't agree. Germany for example is pretty shameless beyond the shame border in USA. To give you a few maybe extreme examples (which does not apply to all people in Germany and not all this examples are sexual): Mixed saunas, swinger clubs, open relationships, no shame on being naked in designated nudity areas, topless DJs, a naked women is not a big skandal etc. Yet Germany does not have the drug problems which Or…

How many social safety nets does Germany have compared to the US and Oregon. My guess is a lot more and probably a less isolated culture, more family friends around, cheaper cost of living too. This shame thing your all rambling seems to be a red herring

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#790

Post by Terr_ »

darth_avocado wrote: post #205
brightlancer wrote: post #186

Rubbish. Folks made the exact same arguments about alcohol and marijuana. Specifically with alcohol, anyone can walk into a treatment center without fear that they'll be arrested for the mere _use_ of a substance. (Marijuana has very low risk and rates of addiction, physical or psychological.) If "hard" drugs are legalized, then they will likely be treated the same as alcohol and pot and tobacco: highly regulated, so…

I generally agree with the sentiment that drugs should be treated like we treat other addictions like alcohol. Drugs should be decriminalized, anti social criminal behavior should stay criminalized. If I’m drunk and pee in public or assault someone, I’ll go to jail. That is what should happen if I do it under the influence of drugs. The one difference though between alcohol and some of the drugs is potency and how qu…

I often like to bring up a thought-experiment involving a drug (or brain-parasite) where one dose makes the person willing to commit any crime or violence in order to secure another hit, even selling their kids into slavery and cutting off their own leg. Also multiple doses kills the person, and it has no medical value whatsoever.

IMO this helps highlight the spectrum we're dealing with, where one point is "taking that is a bad choice but I support your freedom of choice and autonomy", and another might be "holy shit this doom-substance so irredeemably anti-freedom that banning it is obviously the best practical choice."

Even if you look at such a drug as a roundabout form of suicide, it's one where the person must be blocked from harming others on their way out.

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