Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home • Hacker News Board

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#781

Post by afiori » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 5:37 AM UTC

developer93 wrote: post #775

twh270 wrote: post #648

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup. I've had many conversations about this topic with my son (and on occasion some of his friends -- both male and female), since he was in middle school (a decade ago). They're well aware of how men are portrayed versus women. We've transitioned from "A women's place is in the home (barefoot, pregnant, and cooking a delicious meal for her husband)" to "A woman's place is whatever she wants, and men are the reason f…

Well, decades ago, men did run the world, to all intents and purposes. They're still in most positions of power (politics ceos etc), most things are designed by men, etc. This doesn't mean that it's the fault of every single man, any more than as a Brit who benefits from a legacy of empire that I'm personally responsible for whatever massacres. You can be aware of it without taking the blame.

An interesting part of this conversation is that there are strong subtexts that often have more weight than the actual words in driving how people actually answer.

Scott Alexander as a nice rationaliization of this dynamic

https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/05/12/weak-men-are-superweap...

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#782

Post by developer93 » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 5:37 AM UTC

username90 wrote: post #574

ziziyO wrote: post #557

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When all you’ve known is privilege, equality can feel like oppression.

Todays boys have only known privilege until today that they are suddenly equal? How does that work?

We are not suddenly all equal, but it's becoming more so, and that seems to be a problem. Eventually hopefully anyone will be able to do whatever they like in life without expectations put on them because of things they have no control over. I think there is a communication issue where "mostly men" has been shortened to "men" which is read as "all men"

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#783

Post by hajile » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 5:38 AM UTC

soucy wrote: post #559

flippinburgers wrote: post #511

Men are not doing as well as women in school. If you look in the wrong places on the internet, media, or daily life, all you see is negativity towards masculinity. In addition, there doesn't appear to be any broad social system that is geared towards supporting men. The fact that men don't tend to be a socially adept doesn't help. This all feels like the perfect storm and there are plenty of people who act like "men…

Bullshit. There are problems but it's not because of some "war on masculinity". The real issues are economic.

If it is economic, then why does it only affect men?

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#784

Post by developer93 » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 5:38 AM UTC

t-writescode wrote: post #564

ziziyO wrote: post #557

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When all you’ve known is privilege, equality can feel like oppression.

Forgive me, but then it is not the kind of equality we should strive for. I want everyone on better, higher footing, not the highly footed to be brought down.

The point of this comment was not that men should be bought down, but that being asked to consider someone else feels like an imposition when you're not accustomed to doing that.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#785

Post by developer93 » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 5:40 AM UTC

doubleunplussed wrote: post #623

ziziyO wrote: post #557

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When all you’ve known is privilege, equality can feel like oppression.

You are probably directing this at men, but I've also heard this directed at women who were surprised to find out that working unpleasant jobs full time is actually not the greener grass they thought it was. Or women picking a physical fight only to be shocked at a man fighting back. Or women being surprised at being sentenced to jail when they expected a slap on the wrist. The list goes on.

As a woman, that's a good thing. Equality is equality the bad and the good. But I feel like many people of all genders have a hard time adapting.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#786

Post by brnt » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 5:41 AM UTC

flippinburgers wrote: post #511

Men are not doing as well as women in school. If you look in the wrong places on the internet, media, or daily life, all you see is negativity towards masculinity. In addition, there doesn't appear to be any broad social system that is geared towards supporting men. The fact that men don't tend to be a socially adept doesn't help. This all feels like the perfect storm and there are plenty of people who act like "men…

> If you look in the wrong places on the internet, media, or daily life, all you see is negativity towards masculinity.

This line surprised me, because I find it _far_ easier to stumble over mysogyny, casual or not. In the latter case, comitted by some of the men discussed here.

Ultimately, I think a lot of this is, on both 'sides', is people mistaking their toxic little corner of the internet for the real world. It is important not to be dragged into their worldview, because it is utterly incorrect. (Men are not any less supported than women, also, men do not have anything coming. In fact, men are not a singular group! So stop identifying with 'men', where we imagine some lucky billionaire as exemplar of men.)

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#787

Post by brianxp » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 5:41 AM UTC

rewgs wrote: post #543

spideymans wrote: post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More succinctly, why work when we have nothing to work for? Anecdotally, I just graduated from university and am gainfully employed. I'm really happy to be employed, yet I quickly realized that I have no idea what I want to do with all this money. I'm never going to be able to buy a house. I'm not particularly enthusiastic about having kids, and don't think I can afford children in the first place. I have no major li…

Why do you say that you're never going to be able to buy a house, but maybe will end up retiring before you're 40? Sounds like, in lieu of anything else, you should try and buy a rental property or two. Start slow, eventually FIRE, that whole thing. That said, yeah, the same sentence could then be applied but with time: "why retire when I have nothing to do with my time?" I'm 30 and still don't have a great answer fo…

In my country people living with the minimum wage will never be able to go "FIRE" or even retire. They earn about 10 usd a day or about 260 a month have to commute for about 2 hours each way and have one day off each two weeks.

Even I a young tech worker know I will never get a pension and I will never own a "proper house" the closest I will get to that will be more like a caged house in Taiwan.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#788

Post by fighterpilot » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 5:42 AM UTC

88840-8855 wrote: post #391

thepasswordis wrote: post #291

Is anybody advocating for them or encouraging them in any way? I can’t think of a single group which aims to highlight men, uplift men, and encourage masculine behavior. These guys grew up in a school system of almost entirely women teachers, and popular media tells them that if they are successful in any way, it is due to oppression. It’s no wonder why they’re not succeeding. We spent the last 15 years telling them…

I have a good friend who is working in HR. She used to be in hiring, now she is in the talent and development stream. We are not in the same company. A few weeks ago I was speaking about my impression that my company is forcing women into promotions and positions just for the sake of reaching targets. I said that it felt unfair towards male colleagues. Her reply was something like this: Men had the advantage for thou…

This is one reason to love being a founder, you don't have to pass through these racist/sexist quotas set by the HR departments of larger companies.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#789

Post by iammisc » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 5:42 AM UTC

atweiden wrote: post #221

CydeWeys wrote: post #36

Part of this problem is our societal failure to build enough housing to keep up with the increasing number of people, with a resulting increase in housing costs that has significantly outpaced the median wage. If you can't afford to live on your own, and can't afford housing where the jobs are located, then you're more likely to live with your parents and be unemployed.

> Part of this problem is our societal failure to build enough housing to keep up with the increasing number of people. The issue is human overpopulation, not our society’s “failure” to destroy the fabric of closely knit communities. Humans are by far the least efficient life form on this planet, and what little enjoyment most humans get out of life mostly comes down to the integrity of their local communities: their…

Thankfully people who think this way will soon die out

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#790

Post by cjohnson318 » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 5:44 AM UTC

prestigious wrote: post #741

cjohnson318 wrote: post #718

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Especially a problem because for almost all men a career and supporting family (maybe the hardest thing to figure out in life) is non optional... What do you mean? Of course those are optional. If you don't want a career, you're not going to have one. If you don't want to get married and support a family, then you don't have to. I mean, "saddle up to a breadwinner" is an extremely demeaning thing to say about a who…

You are going to have to back up men dominate all desirable successful professions… more women doctors are being produced than men for instance

Here's an excerpt from the first hit on Google for "percentage of fortune 500 companies run by women".

> During the first quarter of 2021, 41 women will lead Fortune 500 companies. That’s just 8.2 percent, but an improvement from the 33 companies in 2019 and 24 in 2018. Going back 20 years, there were just two companies on the list that were run by women, according to Fortune.

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/record-number...

There's more women doctors, but that percentage hovers around 35%, which is about the same as the number of women in leadership positions in U.S. federal and state government.