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Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

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Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#781

Post by chmod600 »

rmah wrote: post #687
lootsauce wrote: post #606

“Because here's something else that's weird but true: in the day-to day trenches of adult life, there is actually no such thing as atheism. There is no such thing as not worshipping. Everybody worships. The only choice we get is what to worship. And the compelling reason for maybe choosing some sort of god or spiritual-type thing to worship—be it JC or Allah, be it YHWH or the Wiccan Mother Goddess, or the Four Noble…

In that quote, Wallace is just morphing, conflating, and fudging the definition of the word "worship". He says people "worship" (with a variety of subtly different meanings) a variety of things and then, implies that because we can use the same word, "worship", to describe those activities, they are equivalent. I despise this rhetorical technique. I find it both insulting, intellectually dishonest and useless.

It is not logically rigorous, but it illustrates a point.

Can you expand on why the distinction you are drawing is important?

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#782

Post by CanceledAccount »

ggggtez wrote: post #734
lootsauce wrote: post #606

“Because here's something else that's weird but true: in the day-to day trenches of adult life, there is actually no such thing as atheism. There is no such thing as not worshipping. Everybody worships. The only choice we get is what to worship. And the compelling reason for maybe choosing some sort of god or spiritual-type thing to worship—be it JC or Allah, be it YHWH or the Wiccan Mother Goddess, or the Four Noble…

Spoken like someone with white privilege.

What does race have to do with this?

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#783

Post by Cookingboy »

ggggtez wrote: post #738
elmomle wrote: post #691

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty clear that that "worship" here refers to where we practice focusing our heart's yearnings, not to a set of religious rites. Synonyms of this meaning of "worship" include "revere" and "venerate".

No. Because he opens his thought with saying that "Atheism" doesn't exist. Atheism isn't a rejection of "yearning" or "reverence". It's a rejection of religion. He's just playing word games, and you are falling for it.

I absolutely agree. It's just your typical pseudo-intellectualism rant here. It starts with a provocative declaration and then backed up with some explanation that is technically true, but doesn't offer any actual insights or value.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#784

Post by pkghost »

rmah wrote: post #687
lootsauce wrote: post #606

“Because here's something else that's weird but true: in the day-to day trenches of adult life, there is actually no such thing as atheism. There is no such thing as not worshipping. Everybody worships. The only choice we get is what to worship. And the compelling reason for maybe choosing some sort of god or spiritual-type thing to worship—be it JC or Allah, be it YHWH or the Wiccan Mother Goddess, or the Four Noble…

In that quote, Wallace is just morphing, conflating, and fudging the definition of the word "worship". He says people "worship" (with a variety of subtly different meanings) a variety of things and then, implies that because we can use the same word, "worship", to describe those activities, they are equivalent. I despise this rhetorical technique. I find it both insulting, intellectually dishonest and useless.

I could not disagree more. Wallace's use of language here is instructive, poignant, and immensely useFUL.

I'll bet you're an engineer, data scientist, or other technical professional, not simply b/c you're here, but b/c your response to Wallace's use of ambiguity and multiple layers of meaning reveals as much about the nature of your own relationship with language, which I'd guess prefers that things should be clear, precise, and have singular meaning. (I'm certainly oversimplifying you, so apologies.)

Look into "cognitive decoupling", and you may find a dichotomy that illustrates some of your reaction to Wallace.

https://everythingstudies.com/2018/05/25/decoupling-revisite...

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#785

Post by methodin »

petre wrote: post #775
jandrese wrote: post #681

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find the idea that faith can't eat you alive to be strange given that we have so many examples of that happening in real life. Faith is no different than money, power, allure, etc... in that regard. That's one reason people turn to atheism in the first place, to avoid getting gobbled up by religion.

I really don't understand why some people have to turn to atheism when not participating in organised religion is quite easy enough. This is what the article implies, church membership as opposed to faith. Why even bother to deny something that others believe without proof and needlessly argue about it? Maybe it makes them happy, more secure. Vocal atheists usually annoy me more than christian evanghelists, mostly be…

Because the U.S. still has not even come close to mastering the separation of church and state which means depending on where you live it will confront you frequently whether you like or not. Burying your head in the sand does nothing if you believe the premise of that separation is virtuous. I am not atheist myself but I have yet to see anyone I know be vocal about their atheism, yet I know many that are vocal about their religious views. I am curious where you see vocal atheists enough that they annoy you?

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#786

Post by 8note »

stephenr wrote: post #490
tyxodiwktis wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn’t necessarily true outside the US. The running joke about Greeks is that they are 98% Greek Orthodox (official stats from a while ago) and 40% atheist. You might be atheist and communist (a fairly common combo in Greece) but will still probably roast a lamb on Easter with your family.

In Australia most historically “Christian” holidays are for the majority of people just time off to spend with family. How or why they started or what the religious think of them now is irrelevant.

The traditional Christian holidays are largely former Roman holidays, so they're mostly just good times to have parties.

Rename lupercalia to Valentine's Day, Saturnalia to Christmas, etc. To make Christianity a seamless switch for the Roman populace

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#787

Post by hexane360 »

nyghtly wrote: post #666
lootsauce wrote: post #606

“Because here's something else that's weird but true: in the day-to day trenches of adult life, there is actually no such thing as atheism. There is no such thing as not worshipping. Everybody worships. The only choice we get is what to worship. And the compelling reason for maybe choosing some sort of god or spiritual-type thing to worship—be it JC or Allah, be it YHWH or the Wiccan Mother Goddess, or the Four Noble…

Here's the full speech for anyone who took an interest in this excerpt: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI In my opinion, it's one of the best graduation speeches of all time.

I much prefer Stephen Colbert's Northwestern commencement speech: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6tiaooiIo0

And a transcript: https://www.northwestern.edu/newscenter/stories/2011/06/colb...

> But if we should serve others, and together serve some common goal or idea - for any one you, what is that idea? And who are those people?

> In my experience, you will truly serve only what you love, because, as the prophet says, service is love made visible.

> If you love friends, you will serve your friends.

> If you love community, you will serve your community.

> If you love money, you will serve your money.

> And if you love only yourself, you will serve only yourself. And you will have only yourself. So no more winning. Instead, try to love others and serve others, and hopefully find those who love and serve you in return.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#788

Post by belorn »

elmomle wrote: post #691
rmah wrote: post #687

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that quote, Wallace is just morphing, conflating, and fudging the definition of the word "worship". He says people "worship" (with a variety of subtly different meanings) a variety of things and then, implies that because we can use the same word, "worship", to describe those activities, they are equivalent. I despise this rhetorical technique. I find it both insulting, intellectually dishonest and useless.

It's pretty clear that that "worship" here refers to where we practice focusing our heart's yearnings, not to a set of religious rites. Synonyms of this meaning of "worship" include "revere" and "venerate".

This redefining of the word worship do not work at all for me. We do not worship cooking food. The words do not describe well a hobby. It is negative associated with personal relationships. Worshiping a pet sound crazy.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#789

Post by mcavoybn »

rmah wrote: post #687
lootsauce wrote: post #606

“Because here's something else that's weird but true: in the day-to day trenches of adult life, there is actually no such thing as atheism. There is no such thing as not worshipping. Everybody worships. The only choice we get is what to worship. And the compelling reason for maybe choosing some sort of god or spiritual-type thing to worship—be it JC or Allah, be it YHWH or the Wiccan Mother Goddess, or the Four Noble…

In that quote, Wallace is just morphing, conflating, and fudging the definition of the word "worship". He says people "worship" (with a variety of subtly different meanings) a variety of things and then, implies that because we can use the same word, "worship", to describe those activities, they are equivalent. I despise this rhetorical technique. I find it both insulting, intellectually dishonest and useless.

Given the degree of your outrage, I think something other than "rhetorical technique" has triggered you here. Then again, maybe you are just really really opinionated about "rhetorical techniques" and following strict definitions of words? In that case, you must despise the vast majority of stories and literature because of their metaphors, parables, and subtly different meanings...

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#790

Post by joefife »

CodeGlitch wrote: post #568
nsilvestri wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no evidence that heterosexual parents are better for children than non-het parents. An important factor is that their parents have a stable relationship. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/01494929.2015.10... https://journals.lww.com/jrnldbp/Abstract/2016/04000/Same_Se...

I was referring more to single parent households.

Yeah, screw those widows.
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