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Amazon, Apple and Google Cut Off Parler

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Re: Amazon, Apple and Google Cut Off Parler

#781
post #763

I'm just going to come out and say something that I've had a hard self reflective time coming to the conclusion of. I don't believe in free speech without limits. I have strongly felt that the actions taken by these companies is morally and ethically the right thing to do, for any business and that is inconsistent with believing in true free speech. My line for free speech seems to lie in speech that incites violence…

The problem here is that private companies are doing something that only democratically legitimized state authorities should be doing, deciding what is allowed or not allowed. Otherwise we are always dependent on the good will of the companies without democratic control.

This is where it gets interesting - are you suggesting private companies shouldn’t be allowed to set terms of service(s)?

Would it be acceptable for the state to pass laws that severely limits private entities to do so?

There’s lot to think about here. Free speech is good and all, but is it not really about free speech in relation to the state? i.e you’ll not be thrown in jail or persecuted for saying things.

Btw, if you follow policy just a bit bellow the surface you’ll soon find that “we are always dependent on the good will of the companies without democratic control” since ways back.

Re: Amazon, Apple and Google Cut Off Parler

#782
post #763

I'm just going to come out and say something that I've had a hard self reflective time coming to the conclusion of. I don't believe in free speech without limits. I have strongly felt that the actions taken by these companies is morally and ethically the right thing to do, for any business and that is inconsistent with believing in true free speech. My line for free speech seems to lie in speech that incites violence…

The problem here is that private companies are doing something that only democratically legitimized state authorities should be doing, deciding what is allowed or not allowed. Otherwise we are always dependent on the good will of the companies without democratic control.

This is a battle of the fundamental nature & limits of free speech vs. the fundamental nature & limits of private property.

Generally speaking, hate speech can be allowed free speech, but not advocacy or incitement of specific violent acts. As the platform owner, and absent additional guidance from courts or Congress, private companies have no choice but to make decisions about what can be done with their private property. No company that is not a "common carrier" is obligated to let their infrastructure be used for a specific purpose. If you don't like the choices they make, the root cause isn't with the companies, it's with the laws themselves.

There is a sort of slider here between speech & property. If you dislike companies controlling their platforms as they see fit & want the slider to move in favor of free speech, it moves against freedoms of private property.

Re: Amazon, Apple and Google Cut Off Parler

#784
post #274

This is an incredibly sort timeframe to expect someone to be able to migrate off AWS. If there infrastructure is docker, or K8 than they can move quickly, but if they are tied into more than a couple of AWS specific services like Route 53 or Lambda then a migration is a big ask.

AWS and Google just showed how extremely untrustful their platforms are. If they can just close any account with a very short notice, without any court decision, then I don't really want to use such a horrible cloud system.

Re: Amazon, Apple and Google Cut Off Parler

#785
I think that this is a really bad idea. I believe that this is selective enforcement because on Twitter there is a ton of incitement to violence. I think it's worse on Twitter because it happens all of the time, and Twitter seems fine with it when it's far left folks. During the George Floyd riots in Portland, at least a few Antifa groups were using Twitter to organize their "protests". If you think that Trump's tweets were incitement, then those tweets were just as bad or even worse. Those protests didn't result in any police/feds dying, but a ton of police/feds were injured, and a lot of antifa type people were trying to kill, they just weren't very good at it.

But in my view, I see this idea that people are being radicalized through social media (YouTube, Twitter, Facebook) will be the same as the video games are causing violence ideas. I think what we are going to find out in the future is that allowing people to vent their crazy on the internet was more likely to let people blow off steam and wind them down. The few people who do act violently and vent about it on places like Twitter, were people who were already prone to violence. Kind of like in the video game blame game when people who were violent, the news always said that they played violent video games. In that case, those people were already violent and liked violent video games. Even those people who are "radicalized" by social media are probably people who could be radicalized by watching cat videos.

Now that's not to say that some people who are on the fence might be radicalized by social media, but I think it's also possible that more people are being deradicalized by allowing them to see all the things, bad or good. Of course, illegal threats should still be removed, but if these social media sites came up with a set of rules and actually followed them even when they didn't like the person, I think that would also go a long way to calming things. Some people will still cry about getting punished unfairly, but I think it's more likely fewer people will agree when they claim they were being persecuted when the rules are followed to the letter.

The biggest worry I have is that all of these deplatforming actions are actually going to lead to violence as people feel like they no longer have any way to express themselves. I really fear that tensions are escalating and these companies are making worse, not better.

Re: Amazon, Apple and Google Cut Off Parler

#786

What happened to Silicon Valley? Just a few years ago, something like this would have triggered libertarian-leaning outrage, especially on HN. Remember the vigorous defenses on here of Backpage? Suddenly everyone’s clutching their pearls and cheering bans that are increasingly broad and unfocused.

A few years ago Silicon Valley was populated with (and run by) people like Brendan Eich. We've spent the intervening time replacing those people - now it's time to finish the job. I wouldn't call it unfocused.

Re: Amazon, Apple and Google Cut Off Parler

#787

I'm just going to come out and say something that I've had a hard self reflective time coming to the conclusion of. I don't believe in free speech without limits. I have strongly felt that the actions taken by these companies is morally and ethically the right thing to do, for any business and that is inconsistent with believing in true free speech. My line for free speech seems to lie in speech that incites violence…

I would propose an expansion to your boundaries because even if someone wasn't born someway, I don't see why it's any more morally clear-headed to treat someone better or worse just because they're an atheist or like anime, neither of which are obviously biologically inherent.

Re: Amazon, Apple and Google Cut Off Parler

#789

I'm just going to come out and say something that I've had a hard self reflective time coming to the conclusion of. I don't believe in free speech without limits. I have strongly felt that the actions taken by these companies is morally and ethically the right thing to do, for any business and that is inconsistent with believing in true free speech. My line for free speech seems to lie in speech that incites violence…

So if Amazon decide that some company is a dangerous competitor to them, and that company uses AWS, then they could just immediately shut down their competitor, because they could find some "hate content" on their website. What about thousands of hate articles sold in Germany by Amazon? Amazon is even selling "Mein Kampf" - a nazi book that is forbidden in Germany. Yeah, a terrorist content is absolutely OK if it's sold by Amazon.

Re: Amazon, Apple and Google Cut Off Parler

#790

I'm just going to come out and say something that I've had a hard self reflective time coming to the conclusion of. I don't believe in free speech without limits. I have strongly felt that the actions taken by these companies is morally and ethically the right thing to do, for any business and that is inconsistent with believing in true free speech. My line for free speech seems to lie in speech that incites violence…

Is it still the ethically right thing to do even if it results in more violence? In my opinion, as a practical matter, near absolute freedom speech is good policy because speech is a buffer between wanting to get your way and doing violence to get your way. An increasingly large swath of American society believes that not only is our democracy corrupt, but they can't say anything about it. What's left? It's not at all obvious to me that taking away someone's ability to effect change through their speech will reduce the likelihood of people coming to harm through violent conflict.

Now, free speech _can_ also be used to spread lies and incite violence, and maybe banning Trump before he had a chance to spread unsubstantiated claims about election fraud would have prevented this recent chaos, but it seems to me that doing it afterwards will increase the chances of violent conflict, at least in the near term. Moreover, the possibility that he might have eventually conceded or placated his supporters is now nil. So, as a consequentialist, I'm dubious of the notion that banning him can be justified on ethical grounds.

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