A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize • Hacker News Board

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#781

Post by andobando » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 7:59 PM UTC

This is quoted form a different article, but am I the only one who sympathizes with this?

>Everyone at Alphabet — from bus drivers to programmers, from salespeople to janitors — plays a critical part in developing our technology. But right now, a few wealthy executives define what the company produces and how its workers are treated. This isn’t the company we want to work for. We care deeply about what we build and what it’s used for. We are responsible for the technology we bring into the world. And we recognize that its implications reach far beyond the walls of Alphabet.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#782

Post by stevegalla » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 8:02 PM UTC

cactus2093 wrote: post #605

rafram wrote: post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> It’s open to anyone working for Alphabet (besides, if it works like a typical union, management). This to me kind of highlights the disconnect of unions in software engineering. In many companies including Google, there are parallel IC and management tracks. There are ICs in leadership positions but just without any reports. Does that mean, e.g. an L7 staff engineer can unionize but not an L5 manager? And then it l…

At least in Canada I’ve seen two different unions at the same place. One Union for managers and one union for the other non-manager employees. I don’t think there is anything stopping managers from forming their own different union.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#783

Post by lawnchair_larry » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 8:02 PM UTC

ignoramous wrote: post #77

objclxt wrote: post #38

When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions, seemingly based in stereotypes about what unions are for and who they serve. People often seem to think of unions as being purely blue-collar operations, and this just isn't true. For example, I've had people tell me that they don't support unions in tech because they'll be "paid less", or less competent engineers will be promoted faster.…

> For example, I've had people tell me that they don't support unions in tech because they'll be "paid less", or less competent engineers will be promoted faster. Yeah, a bizarre line of reasoning. Footballers first unionized in 1907 and haven't looked back since. Today, your average footballer (plying their trade in the upper tiers of English football) makes more in a month than most tech engineers make in a year (g…

It’s silly to compare tech unions to sports teams. There is usually only one major league in a country, and the team that signs you owns you like property. You do what the coach says or you sit on the bench until your contract expires and then don’t get re-signed. It’s not like tech, where if your Google manager so much as gives you a dirty look you can just walk over to facebook and have a new job by Monday. This alone is far more powerful than anything a union can provide.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#784

Post by ReaganFJones » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 8:02 PM UTC

akie wrote: post #766

dannykwells wrote: post #715

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a very important comment, not sure why it's not higher. This isn't really a union in the traditional sense - it's just a group of hyper liberal Google activist employees who are banding together to try to get institutional change.

"hyper liberal" you say ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ In societies that are not America, unions are traditionally left of center but most definitely still more or less in the center. It seems that political discussions relating to the US don't have the appropriate vocabulary to discuss political opinions that are positioned to the left of the corporate wing of the Democratic party.

Even among unions, the tone and political messaging from the AWU is particularly left. It's obvious if you contrast the AWU's stated principles and values with a more traditional union.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#785

Post by halflings » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 8:05 PM UTC

sulam wrote: post #750

halflings wrote: post #697

On this group's homepage [1]: "We are BIPOC workers who fight against totalitarianism." I am not sure what this has to do with unionizing Google workers. Using obscure acronyms to arbitrarily focus on race and ethnicity (something frowned upon here in Europe at least) + the hyperbole of "fighting totalitarianism" doesn't give me great confidence that this is representing workers, as much as it is pushing the ideology…

s/260/120/

"Google employs more than 130,000 contractors and temp workers, a shadow work force that outnumbers its 123,000 full-time" [1]

130K+123K = 253K (article from May, likely closer to 260K now)

One of the main points this group is making is that they want to equally represent fulltime employees and contractors.

"All Alphabet workers deserve a voice: full-time employees, temporary employees, contractors, and vendors. We care for and support each other by striving for open and continuous dialogue among union members." [2]

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/29/technology/google-rescind... [2] https://alphabetworkersunion.org/principles/mission-statemen...

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#786

Post by ahepp » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 8:09 PM UTC

Apocryphon wrote: post #771

jjcon wrote: post #768

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So like half what Google pays? How much does their Union take?

A fairer comparison is probably to other aerospace companies and defense contractors.

My first job at a defense contractor in the midwest started at $70k. This was an employee owned company, but my understanding is that salaries are fairly similar at other defense contractors. Interestingly, it got to the point where the government employees we worked next to made more than us. Usually the deal is they get great benefits, but lower pay. However, pay seemed to be pretty stagnant at my contractor (nice folks though).

Taking the same salary to live near Seattle (Everett, I suppose, but the point stands) is a substantial pay cut.

I now work at a different defense contractor, across the street from said Boeing plant and came in with ~3y experience for ~$110k. Certainly much lower than a true "tech company", but it was tens of thousands of dollars higher than where I'd fall on the Boeing pay scales.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#787

Post by muzaffarpur » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 8:11 PM UTC

SamoyedFurFluff wrote: post #223

kenhwang wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's the exact opposite problem the tech industry has. The film industry has way more talent supply than the employment demands, which naturally suppresses pay. The guilds/unions are a way to increase scarcity to maintain pay and ease hiring. The tech industry has much less talent supply and much much much more employment demand. Tech might be better modeled after high skilled trade unions (which have a labor…

I disagree with this point to some extent. Look at video game devs, who have similar problems where there’s a lot of labor supply enabling abuses. Also look at the abuse capable of h1b visa holders.

Companies are exploiting because united states want them to. There is a reason why a group of people(mostly Indians) are kept into the state of limbo. The fake fraternity angle is BS. Even the immigrant communities(demonstrated from Iranian immigrants protest against S386) want to keep it this way, so few can get bigger pie at the expanse of other. Everyone needs to know and understand the truth behind the so called fraternity. Would an Asian/Indian/Chinese would get same kind of protection as compared to their white/black counterparts. I doubt it.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#788

Post by minimuffins » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 8:11 PM UTC

ransom1538 wrote: post #395

objclxt wrote: post #38

When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions, seemingly based in stereotypes about what unions are for and who they serve. People often seem to think of unions as being purely blue-collar operations, and this just isn't true. For example, I've had people tell me that they don't support unions in tech because they'll be "paid less", or less competent engineers will be promoted faster.…

unintended consequences 1. Fat cats. What are the due fees? %1 now?, later then? %5 of gross annually? 200 people * 300k year * %5 of salary = 3 million. They will use this on fancy dinners with Google execs? Or spend it in "wrongful terminations" law suites with google for years? What happens when 50x more join. 2. Who runs it? Will it be a 10 year long president? What is her union salary? A non-google person? Will…

These are all real problems, especially in a lot of today's older unions that have been completely hollowed out and have become a kind of do-nothing "labor aristocracy."

They don't function as democratic institutions serving laborers' interests anymore, only their own narrow, elite, institutional needs--often institutional self-preservation at the expense of their members' interests. They're decrepit, corrupt dinosaurs, just like the Right says. But they got that way by losing the fight in the 20th century. Now they're kind of useless vestiges just waiting around to slough off eventually.

So the old unions are no model to emulate here. But just noting that and giving up of course leaves the problem of my lack of power in the workplace completely unsolved.

> One thing that wont happen: better working conditions.

I still want better working conditions though, for me and for everybody. What do you suggest?

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#789

Post by ahepp » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 8:11 PM UTC

jjcon wrote: post #768

ahepp wrote: post #764

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Boeing has software engineer unions. They start at like, ~$70k and after a few years can get up to ~$90k (someone correct me if I'm off, but I don't think I'm very far off).

So like half what Google pays? How much does their Union take?

I certainly wouldn't consider it competitive. I don't know how much of it is union dues.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#790

Post by ALittleLight » Mon, Jan 04, 2021, 8:13 PM UTC

azernik wrote: post #727

lliamander wrote: post #707

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least an idea of what they are trying to bargain for would be nice.

They have a website with a platform and priorities at https://alphabetworkersunion.org/power/why/ "We want to wield our power to ensure: * Our working conditions are inclusive and fair, * Perpetrators of harassment, abuse, discrimination, and retaliation are held accountable, * We have the freedom to decline to work on projects that don’t align with our values, * All workers, regardless of employment status, can enjo…

Their union seems to be more social justice focused than I'd be interested in joining, e.g. "achieve just outcomes, social and economic justice are paramount".

I'd be much more interested in tackling things like non-competes, employee ownership of side projects, better vesting schedules, better direction for the company, salaries, revisiting how many H1B visas there are, etc.