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Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at risk

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Re: Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at risk

#781

Post by oramit »

treis wrote: post #758
oramit wrote: post #722

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually chose stomp over eradicate because I wanted to imply that there would still be some left but that it would be a manageable amount. That's interesting that you took it the opposite way; I'm sorry for the confusion. I agree, eradication was probably impossible in the United States. What I thought we all agreed on at the start of this thing was to lock down so we could "flatten the curve". Remember that? Whil…

We didn't snuff out hot spots. The virus was/is still in NYC and Washington. No matter how long we locked down for it would still be there waiting to emerge after the lock down ended. That was the problem with the lockdown. It was touted as a solution when its just a delaying tactic. Schools are the same. Keeping them closed is just a delaying tactic. And like the lockdown, unless we delay until a vaccine then it's a…

I don't remember lockdowns being touted as a solution. I always understood it as a delaying tactic so things could be brought back under some control. Flatten the curve and all that. NYC didn't eliminate the virus but they've kept their curve flat so it's not getting out of control again.

This delaying tactic is all we have for right now, its likely saved thousands of lives, and that's not nothing. What is your plan for the next stage?

Re: Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at risk

#782

Post by thephyber »

ghufran_syed wrote: post #319
thephyber wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but its a good kind of weird. This isn't guaranteed. A counterexample is Tara Westover[1] who grew up in an extremist version of what you are describing. She ultimately became successful but it was mostly despite her parents isolation from "the system", not because of them. [1] https://www.npr.org/2018/02/20/587244230/memoirist-retraces-...

In what education system are outcomes guaranteed? The story you linked to is pretty interesting, but she clearly states she was allowed to learn (just not forced to), she obviously understood what a university was, and had the desire and ability to apply and be accepted to university at an age when her parents would have had the legal right to stop her if they so wished - they obviously supported her application. Her…

I interpreted "the system" of your GP as wider society, not just the normal public education system, because of the first paragraph.

Also, yes Tara was given lots of autonomy early in her education, but she was completely unprepared for the world even at BYU (her undergraduate university), she struggled through many years of therapy, and she claims she was admitted to Cambridge because of luck (on top of lots of talent and hard work) because she still needed lots of remedial coursework to catch up. One interesting quote from a (TED?) talk she gave is that her early childhood was spent reading early Mormon scripture, so she spoke and wrote with the character of a mid-19th century LDS prophet when she arrived at university.

Re: Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at risk

#783

Post by spaetzleesser »

oramit wrote: post #358

What we currently have going on right now is a complete collapse in confidence. So many commenters are debating the death rate, case counts, hospitalizations, etc, which is all besides the point. Heres the thing: even if you believe people are being irrationally afraid, telling people they are stupid and should just suck it up isn't going to get people to cooperate. Do you want to be smugly right, or do you want thin…

“What we currently have going on right now is a complete collapse in confidence. So many commenters are debating the death rate, case counts, hospitalizations, etc, which is all besides the point.“

That’s what happens when political parties and now the president and his administration are spreading misinformation as long it helps their short term needs. Nobody believes anything anymore. I am already worried about the election. No matter the result, a significant part of the population will most likely not trust the results. I don’t think a country can survive such distrust without significant damage to its institutions.

Re: Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at risk

#784

Post by wfreeborn »

samatman wrote: post #694
rayiner wrote: post #689

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Island.

Yes, exactly. But Australia is also an island, in the relevant sense for this discussion, and didn't succeed in eradication. Hawaii also had considerable success, albeit recently undermined. Much to my chagrin, since I live here. My conclusion is that eradicating this virus is very difficult, even with all the advantages. But again, not impossible.

Adding an Australian perspective here. Our politicians did not share the same approach as New Zealand (which started with a level 4 lockdown and stayed there for 6-8 weeks). The approach here has certainly been more unified than the US, but states are encouraged to pursue their own approaches, with some states (WA, SA, Queensland) having much more success than others (NSW, Victoria). The plan here was never to pursue eradication, but to flatten the curve and keep infection rates manageable. I wish we'd considered eradication more seriously. As a country we have the resources to support the country through that 6 week period, and the national government would have done a decent enough job in ensuring the population had sufficient support through that period.

Re: Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at risk

#785

Post by [deleted] »

twblalock wrote: post #333
MattGaiser wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even on the outside, it seems like pushing kids back into the classroom is poorly thought out. I can't imagine the shitshow it must seem like on the inside.

The problem is, remote education has been a complete disaster. I know a few teachers. Apparently their students found out that the state was unwilling to hold anyone back a year during the pandemic, they shared this information with each other, and now a substantial amount of them are not doing any work. In some classes, more than half the students are permanently absent! Either their parents don't know, or don't car…

[deleted]

Re: Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at risk

#786

Post by jdminhbg »

strgcmc wrote: post #615
watwut wrote: post #593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Complete eradication is not what Europe nor China are doing and have better results.

This. And maybe we shouldn't trust China's reported data, but Europe is almost doing miraculously well if you compare to the USA. Not going for eradication, but containment. With containment, everything else is possible (healthcare system not overloaded, economy can be opened up, schools can reopen, etc.). The US has capitulated completely, and even containment isn't really on the table nationally; on a state-by-stat…

> but Europe is almost doing miraculously well if you compare to the USA.

This is totally at odds with the data. The UK, France, Spain, and Italy, among others, have higher deaths per capita than the US.

Re: Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at risk

#787

Post by duderific »

kvz wrote: post #536

I live in the Netherlands. Schools were closed here for nearly two months and then re-opened for 6 weeks now, the re-opening did not affect R. Tests are available for all school personnel and there were no hospitalizations. Some more data points: - we do take care that parents stay 1.5 meters apart. There’s special drop-off routes and such, parents don’t enter the buildings - I don’t have data on this but I assume ve…

We don't do much nationally in the US to help our public schools. They vary widely in terms of having resources available to do things like deep clean the classrooms every day, provide PPE for teachers, etc. And there is zero federal support for providing a testing program of the sort you mention for teachers.

Re: Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at risk

#788

Post by pqhwan »

matz1 wrote: post #693
burner831234 wrote: post #647

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazing for someone to write off 140k deaths. Only 58,000 died in Vietnam. Thats literally in and out of "theaters of war". 1900 died in the Gulf war and those are ppl who "signed up for it". So, only 140k died. Callous AF.

Because its not worth it to make millions other people suffer due to lockdown.

I’m sorry, but of all the things I’ve read on HN regarding this pandemic, your lack of empathy truly stands out. Of the “millions other people” you mentioned, there are two types: those who feel a sense of duty to bear their share of burden to stop this virus from taking (complete strangers’) lives, and those who reject that notion, eagerly treating those lives, and the lives of people who would grieve their losses, as statistics to be put on scale with profit and growth for a quick decision. I’m not saying that people in the latter invented that scale; that scale is indeed a fact of life. But when I think of my own experience of loss, I cannot imagine that those who tout the balance of this scale as the sole reason for policy decisions understand the weight of a lost life.

Re: Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at risk

#789

Post by treis »

oramit wrote: post #781
treis wrote: post #758

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We didn't snuff out hot spots. The virus was/is still in NYC and Washington. No matter how long we locked down for it would still be there waiting to emerge after the lock down ended. That was the problem with the lockdown. It was touted as a solution when its just a delaying tactic. Schools are the same. Keeping them closed is just a delaying tactic. And like the lockdown, unless we delay until a vaccine then it's a…

I don't remember lockdowns being touted as a solution. I always understood it as a delaying tactic so things could be brought back under some control. Flatten the curve and all that. NYC didn't eliminate the virus but they've kept their curve flat so it's not getting out of control again. This delaying tactic is all we have for right now, its likely saved thousands of lives, and that's not nothing. What is your plan…

It's not clear what the impact of the lockdowns are. You say that they've saved thousands, but in a lot of places we are back to where we were before the lockdown. Or even doing worse. I suspect that the lockdowns delayed deaths, but in most places will not have substantially reduced them.

The plan for the next stage is all of the public health measures that other countries have used to contain it. Masks, hygiene, social distancing, contact tracing, etc.

At this point we know how to stop it. Compliance is not there and every day that passes it goes down.

Re: Teachers are ready to quit rather than put their lives at risk

#790

Post by oramit »

marcell wrote: post #763
oramit wrote: post #722

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually chose stomp over eradicate because I wanted to imply that there would still be some left but that it would be a manageable amount. That's interesting that you took it the opposite way; I'm sorry for the confusion. I agree, eradication was probably impossible in the United States. What I thought we all agreed on at the start of this thing was to lock down so we could "flatten the curve". Remember that? Whil…

Well if you take eradication off the table, then you have to assume the entire susceptible population will eventually get the virus. So I guess, I don't see the benefit of "stomping" the virus down to some small level. It was at a very small level back in February, and then grew. If we get it back down to that small level, it will just grow again. There's no benefit to locking down for 3 months to have it grow in Jul…

Stomping the virus down to a manageable level so it doesn't overwhelm hospitals was the main goal of "Flatten the curve". We actually succeeded in quite a few hot spots to do this - NYC being the biggest example. Covid still exists there and people are still dying but it's not out of control. If you stay on top of it, it doesn't just grow again.

I'm not sure why you say there was no benefit to locking down. It clearly did wonders for NYC. It's likely that thousands of people were saved by this action.

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