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Microsoft has removed the “use offline account” option when installing Windows

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Re: Microsoft has removed the “use offline account” option when installing Windows

#781

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I am! I reckon it's a neat OS. They've improved it dramatically (except for that... Candy Crush auto install, that is annoying). I have used WSL a lot, and now I use VS Code Remote to develop on a Debian 10 VPS. It's glorious. Being able to build a custom computer that I can do work on, and that I can play games on, and that run the Adobe suite of software, and not pay through the nose for high specs is wonderful. Af…

The nail for me was when OS updated were forced through their Apple Store. They have moved away from that now, updates are managed through preferences again.

It's too late for me my friend!

Re: Microsoft has removed the “use offline account” option when installing Windows

#782
post #165

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They do. I work in a very large corp. 25k+ employees, 5bn+ net revenue per year. Our entire IT dept. is outsourced, we're on office365, rent all of our hardware which is refreshed at regular intervals as part of the deal. Everything developed native cloud, all our offices are rented. We basically do everything we can to reduce capital expenditures.

It's funny that entire IT architectures have evolved just to optimize tax reduction and stock market interaction because of rules about opex and capex. I wonder though whether this optimization hasn't created a brittleness in operations, where shocks due to security lapses or outsourced provider probls become unrecoverable.

It's not "just about rules". Having the flexibility to spend slightly more or less based on fluctuations in your workforce, or customer demand, is highly preferable to making n-year bets on your needs, even if you end up paying a 10% premium on average for that stability.

Re: Microsoft has removed the “use offline account” option when installing Windows

#783

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> They do, else MS would not need those dark patterns. No, typical end users do not care what “domain join” means. They only care about creating offline accounts. “Domain join” isn’t supposed to mean “create offline account”, it’s supposed to let you join the computer to an AD domain. Or at least, that’s what I’d expect.

Users don't care about "offline account" either. (What does that mean to a user, they can't access the internet any more?) Same with the previous term before that, "local account", had no meaning to most "typical" end users for about the same reason. Some of this I guess is semi-intentional dark patterns [1], but it's also a complex space where explaining the trade-offs to "typical" end users would involve a ton of w…

"Local accounts" is perfectly apt name. "Local accounts" doesn't come close to implying "can't join the internet" either, although "offline accounts" might.

Still none of this really justifies burying the option deep and using vague terminologies to hide this feature. Case in point: I had to google search the procedure to create a local account when I wanted to create an account for guests/others that use my laptop.

The pain point about telemetry is that Windows is a paid product and there shouldn't even be such a thing in a product that people pay for. And although there might (now) be settings to control telemetry, what good are they when Windows updates reset all settings regularly?

Re: Microsoft has removed the “use offline account” option when installing Windows

#784

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's funny that entire IT architectures have evolved just to optimize tax reduction and stock market interaction because of rules about opex and capex. I wonder though whether this optimization hasn't created a brittleness in operations, where shocks due to security lapses or outsourced provider probls become unrecoverable.

It's not "just about rules". Having the flexibility to spend slightly more or less based on fluctuations in your workforce, or customer demand, is highly preferable to making n-year bets on your needs, even if you end up paying a 10% premium on average for that stability.

It is possible to run large portions of your operations in the cloud and still have in-house admin expertise. Having your own servers is definitely much cheaper than a 10% saving, depending on whether your connectivity needs are more relevant. Servers from hetzner or such like are similarly much cheaper than AWS/Azure.

One thing I definitely wouldn't run if I could help it would be email, going O365 or gsuite saves a ton of effort that doesn't contribute to the bottom line and has significant security advantages. But 'everything azure' or 'everything aws' has its own challenges.

Re: Microsoft has removed the “use offline account” option when installing Windows

#785

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It's one reason I gave up having a MacBook Pro, the hardware is underwhelming in so many ways. But my Mac Pro from 2010 still gets nvidia driver updates and cuda support. In the unlikely event someone will pay for a new Mac Pro for me I'll be able to stick a 2080 in it. You can stick an nvidia card in a PCI-e chassis and it will work on a laptop or Mac mini, but yes it isn't optimal.

"isn't optimal" is an understatement. It's downright wonky!

I've had good experiences with Magma PCIe expanders, for linux and macis, though they are firmly in the enterprise space. https://www.onestopsystems.com/pcie-expansion

Ah, the joys of finding quirks in PCIe enumeration when you have PCIe switches and expansion bridges.

Re: Microsoft has removed the “use offline account” option when installing Windows

#786

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Mac App Store definitely requires Apple ID.

I've used the App Store like one whole time in my entire life and that was to upgrade Xcode once. Elsewhere you mention a VPN client requiring you to download it from the App Store - well take it up with the app developer then because I've used tons of VPN clients on Mac (currently using ExpressVPN in fact) and all were straight out of DMGs.

Wireguard uses the new Network Extensions API, and that usage requries entitlement granted by Apple signature. There's no avoiding that. I've also used different VPNs that didn't require that - but they also didn't integrate so well as wg does.

For Xcode, there is another way - it is downloadable from the developer pages.

Re: Microsoft has removed the “use offline account” option when installing Windows

#787

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I wondered if Apple might make a play for that market. They have relatively little skin in the game in terms of online services. They have credibility in both mobile and laptop markets. They have at least some expertise in related areas like server, workstation and networking products. Perhaps more significantly, historically much of their success has come from making big plays that created new markets, and their cur…

> They have relatively little skin in the game in terms of online services. App Store, iTunes Music Store, iTunes Book Store, iCloud, Apple TV+, Apple Arcade, etc. Apple has been making as much of a PR stink about becoming an online services-focused company as Microsoft has. Arguably Apple has been doing even better in direct-to-consumer online services than Microsoft has in the same time period (their app store unde…

App Store, iTunes Music Store, iTunes Book Store, iCloud, Apple TV+, Apple Arcade, etc.

These are generally not the kind of SaaS online services that compete with desktop software, though. Rather, they're primarily ways of delivering software and media content that is then used locally. That actually fits very well with a model of promoting local devices, local networks and centralised access to online services, which is one of the reasons I thought Apple might make a move in that direction. The notable exception is iCloud, but if you consider that this one is primarily about sync and backup facilities and if you're promoting some sort of office server or "home hub" to centralise storage and connectivity to things like offsite backups, again that would fit quite neatly.

Re: Microsoft has removed the “use offline account” option when installing Windows

#788

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They do, else MS would not need those dark patterns. No, typical end users do not care what “domain join” means. They only care about creating offline accounts. “Domain join” isn’t supposed to mean “create offline account”, it’s supposed to let you join the computer to an AD domain. Or at least, that’s what I’d expect.

Users don't care about "offline account" either. (What does that mean to a user, they can't access the internet any more?) Same with the previous term before that, "local account", had no meaning to most "typical" end users for about the same reason. Some of this I guess is semi-intentional dark patterns [1], but it's also a complex space where explaining the trade-offs to "typical" end users would involve a ton of w…

They aren't called local accounts: https://i.imgur.com/eBLi5cv.png

Re: Microsoft has removed the “use offline account” option when installing Windows

#789

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Users don't care about "offline account" either. (What does that mean to a user, they can't access the internet any more?) Same with the previous term before that, "local account", had no meaning to most "typical" end users for about the same reason. Some of this I guess is semi-intentional dark patterns [1], but it's also a complex space where explaining the trade-offs to "typical" end users would involve a ton of w…

They aren't called local accounts: https://i.imgur.com/eBLi5cv.png

They were: https://zdnet4.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/2016/06/17/570b9b29-c982...

The point I included was that Microsoft has changed the wording on it more than once because they don't have a good idea what to call them.

Re: Microsoft has removed the “use offline account” option when installing Windows

#790

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Users don't care about "offline account" either. (What does that mean to a user, they can't access the internet any more?) Same with the previous term before that, "local account", had no meaning to most "typical" end users for about the same reason. Some of this I guess is semi-intentional dark patterns [1], but it's also a complex space where explaining the trade-offs to "typical" end users would involve a ton of w…

"Local accounts" is perfectly apt name. "Local accounts" doesn't come close to implying "can't join the internet" either, although "offline accounts" might. Still none of this really justifies burying the option deep and using vague terminologies to hide this feature. Case in point: I had to google search the procedure to create a local account when I wanted to create an account for guests/others that use my laptop.…

> "Local accounts" is perfectly apt name. "Local accounts" doesn't come close to implying "can't join the internet" either, although "offline accounts" might.

You have a higher opinion of the "typical" end user than I do. "Local" invites the question "local to what?" and "as opposed to what?". When the other option is "online account", then yes even "local" leads to "can't use on the internet" to certain types of users.

Burying a power user feature to avoid confusing inexperienced end users is justified. The argument over whether or not "local accounts" or "offline accounts" are a power user feature is a more interesting argument. I do think that if we can't come up for a name for them that isn't confusing to inexperienced end users, than that's at least one indicator that it may be a power user feature.

> The pain point about telemetry is that Windows is a paid product and there shouldn't even be such a thing in a product that people pay for.

People want data-driven improvements in paid products, too. (Would you rather Microsoft just blindly make changes? What are the alternatives? Go back to waterfall and nothing but overly detailed and over-engineered specs of what some PM thought was a good idea because they heard it from some rich Enterprise client at a tech conference three years ago?)

There are tons of paid products with telemetry. It's been highly upvoted advice here on HN, to do things like A/B testing, and metrics-driven development. Lots of paid products have telemetry (including Apple's and Google's).

"Paid products" is another amusing double standard I'm going to add to my list for telemetry complaints. "What's good for the startup goose, is not good for the old tech gander." --HN commenters, probably

> And although there might (now) be settings to control telemetry, what good are they when Windows updates reset all settings regularly?

There were always settings since Windows XP. The only thing Windows 10 did was change them from opt-in to opt-out by default. Microsoft then responded to arguments that the settings weren't granular enough, so now there's dozens more settings with pages of documentation each (and an explorer tool to log and examine collected telemetry data, if you wish).

The resets were bugs in the upgrade process that have generally been fixed since. Microsoft has been taking settings resets seriously, and absolutely considers them bugs. The way in-place upgrades work, migration scripts missing settings is a problem. Microsoft's "Beta" program (Insiders) is sadly not setup to find telemetry reset bugs because they need the telemetry most of all in Beta testing, so I feel it's understandably unfortunate that so many telemetry settings reset bugs have made it into production.

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