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Richard M. Stallman resigns

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Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#781

Post by rtkwe »

robocat wrote: post #168
dlp211 wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because RMS isn't just another socially awkward engineer. He is a leader and a part of a larger community and is therefore held to a higher standard. The reason for the higher standard is simple, leaders are entrusted with power and need to wield that power better than others. RMS has failed that test today.

> He is a leader and a part of a larger community and is therefore held to a higher standard. I see plenty of political and tech leaders set extremely low moral standards. Why is RMS being used to set an example? Do you think RMS actually hurt any children? His comments are tragically inept - but this seems to boil down to being targeted by breaking headlines such as the New York Post: "MIT scientist says Epstein vic…

> Why is RMS being used to set an example? Do you think RMS actually hurt any children?

That implies that there's some sort of process or council there deciding Stallman gets cancelled. Also this just isn't about his most recent comments about underaged trafficking victims potentially being entirely willing, he's had a long trail of classically sexist "look a girl" moments in speeches and really out there opinions about pedophilia and consent that he only outwardly came out against last weekend _after_ he started getting in hot water about those emails.

Often who gets hit and who doesn't isn't 100% about the most recent events and depends a lot on the story catching fire and in this case it caught and there was a whole barn of old dry tender that had largely been brushed aside because of his technical work.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#782

Post by eloff »

colechristensen wrote: post #762
eloff wrote: post #736

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it we value free speech, but there are certain discussions you just cannot have, even in a rational and measured way, without risking making yourself completely unemployable. You should be able to have a questionable viewpoint in a discussion, without worrying about the lynch mob ending your career. The consequences here are out of line. You can be reprimanded to take your discussions to a non company venue, i…

I value free speech in that I value the government's inability to limit anyone's expression with only a few reasonable exceptions. I don't take "free speech" to mean anyone can say anything without consequence. The government has a whole lot of power and it comes with limits like free speech. That doesn't mean that people in my employ can say awful things and I should just ignore it. Free speech doesn't extend to bei…

If you can't express yourself on certain topics, there's a chilling effect where people just don't talk about them and no further progress can be made. There are now plenty of topics like this including gender [edit: I should specify that it's fine to talk about gender, but only if you have certain permissible positions on the topic]. This list used to include other things like being pro gay rights, pro equality for races or gender - but at least you were able to have those conversations without fear of being lynched and society moved forward. You should be allowed to voice a viewpoint that's against the mainstream viewpoint without risk of making yourself unemployable.

It's atrocious that our academic institutions, which used to be a bulwark of free-speech are leading the charge here.

Stallman made questionable, but reasoned statements. He perhaps should not have made them in a work forum, but the consequences here are way out of proportion to the "crime".

You've been throwing a lot of stones here, but I'm sure you've held or expressed viewpoints just as questionable at some time in your life. I know I have. Should you now be denied the right to make a living if they come to light?

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#783

Post by colechristensen »

mieseratte wrote: post #745
colechristensen wrote: post #679

RMS was defending his friend who, at the age of 74, is accused of having sex with a 17 year old girl on a billionaire's private island. There is not a defense for what RMS was writing or how he was trying to defend Minsky. The prevalence of comments trying to turn this against "SJW"s or whatever "other" they can because they're a fan of RMS is disturbing. This isn't us vs. them. This is a man who said something wildl…

> I welcome anyone to provide a counter-argument. Here's a counter. You're ascribing intent to one's writing, and unless you have a special relationship with Mr. Stallman - you don't know anything. Because of a radical, illiberal mob, Stallman's life's work has been taken from him. Few years ago I had had a Junior engineer on my team begin telling me how he finds certain speech so intolerable that he feels he has the…

The statements I see stand on their own.

Supposing intent behind them isn't necessary.

What they say is damning regardless of intent.

And the intent was pretty obvious.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#784

Post by t0astbread »

JaumeGreen wrote: post #771
t0astbread wrote: post #743

Regardless of whether it was right to ditch Stallman as the president of the FSF, here's my "wishlist" for his successor (in case they don't revert it): - Someone who is less of a hardliner: Stallman's dedication to free software is a good thing but his absolutist style of expressing it might have put a lot of people off who would otherwise not be opposed to the idea of free software - Someone who understands the pro…

> Someone who is less of a hardliner: [...] his absolutist style of expressing it might have put a lot of people off I think this is two different issues. I wouldn't mind a softer talker, but I would prefer for that person to be a hardliner and someone who would open our minds to alternatives in the openess direction. There are too many "money talks"/"free market solves it all" people in the world, if the front-perso…

That might be a better way to put it

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#785

Post by yibg »

mieseratte wrote: post #745
colechristensen wrote: post #679

RMS was defending his friend who, at the age of 74, is accused of having sex with a 17 year old girl on a billionaire's private island. There is not a defense for what RMS was writing or how he was trying to defend Minsky. The prevalence of comments trying to turn this against "SJW"s or whatever "other" they can because they're a fan of RMS is disturbing. This isn't us vs. them. This is a man who said something wildl…

> I welcome anyone to provide a counter-argument. Here's a counter. You're ascribing intent to one's writing, and unless you have a special relationship with Mr. Stallman - you don't know anything. Because of a radical, illiberal mob, Stallman's life's work has been taken from him. Few years ago I had had a Junior engineer on my team begin telling me how he finds certain speech so intolerable that he feels he has the…

Divining intent isn’t the right threshold to judge speech. If it were then I can say whatever I want in whatever environment, because how would you prove my intent?

I yell fire in a crowded theatre, that’s ok it wasn’t my intent to cause panic.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#786

Post by DagAgren »

mieseratte wrote: post #745
colechristensen wrote: post #679

RMS was defending his friend who, at the age of 74, is accused of having sex with a 17 year old girl on a billionaire's private island. There is not a defense for what RMS was writing or how he was trying to defend Minsky. The prevalence of comments trying to turn this against "SJW"s or whatever "other" they can because they're a fan of RMS is disturbing. This isn't us vs. them. This is a man who said something wildl…

> I welcome anyone to provide a counter-argument. Here's a counter. You're ascribing intent to one's writing, and unless you have a special relationship with Mr. Stallman - you don't know anything. Because of a radical, illiberal mob, Stallman's life's work has been taken from him. Few years ago I had had a Junior engineer on my team begin telling me how he finds certain speech so intolerable that he feels he has the…

As far as I understand, there's plenty of real-world horrible conduct he could have got fired for too, which has gone without consequence.

This isn't a one-time thing where he never did a bad thing in his life and now is suddenly attacked by a mob. He has been an awful person for a long, long time, and now he is suddenly facing actual consequences.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#788

Post by solidsnack9000 »

widowlark wrote: post #764
eloff wrote: post #736

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it we value free speech, but there are certain discussions you just cannot have, even in a rational and measured way, without risking making yourself completely unemployable. You should be able to have a questionable viewpoint in a discussion, without worrying about the lynch mob ending your career. The consequences here are out of line. You can be reprimanded to take your discussions to a non company venue, i…

Stallman hasn't been silenced in any way. Free speech does not mean you can say whatever you like without consequence from private institutions and citizens, only that you may say whatever you like without consequences from the government et al. Your conflation that free speech is under attack is disappointing - That's not what is happening here.

So if MIT were a state school, would you say free speech is under attack?

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#789

Post by t0astbread »

tombert wrote: post #765
t0astbread wrote: post #743

Regardless of whether it was right to ditch Stallman as the president of the FSF, here's my "wishlist" for his successor (in case they don't revert it): - Someone who is less of a hardliner: Stallman's dedication to free software is a good thing but his absolutist style of expressing it might have put a lot of people off who would otherwise not be opposed to the idea of free software - Someone who understands the pro…

I agree with your second two points 100%, though not with the first at all. I think that Stallman's hardliner stance, while it has scared away a lot of people, has also been a good thing in a lot of regards; if nothing else, it shows that there is a position to be had in the extreme copyleft.

Understandable. My line of thought was that free software could, in some places where it's not big yet, win in the long term if the FSF stopped judging devs/makers of non-free software. (And instead maybe acknowledged that it's hard to develop free software in that field under the current circumstances to raise awareness.)

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#790

Post by blub »

colechristensen wrote: post #773
cf141q5325 wrote: post #757

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>RMS was defending his friend who, at the age of 74, is accused of having sex with a 17 year old girl on a billionaire's private island. Which until a few years ago was completely legal in for example Switzerland. As long of course as no one is coerced into anything. Playing the Advocatus Diaboli, why should i view this outcry as anything different then the Saudis stance on sex before marriage? Fundamentalist puritan…

There isn't a situation where a 74 year old has sexual contact with a 17 year old on a billionaire's private island in which everyone is willing and happy with what is happening. It is extremely doubtful that a young woman would find herself in that situation in any other way than a long path of abuse and desperation. Taking advantage of that young woman is immoral. That isn't some puritanical, anti-sex philosophy th…

In Berlusconi's ~75yo case he was acquitted of having sex with a 17yo because the "fact is not a crime". Then he was accused of bribing witnesses 10 million €, so I guess we have to wait and see.

Definitely morally dubious, especially in his case. It's not clear if the girl did it for money, or was more or less nudged into this by her life circumstances.

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