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Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

nytimes.com

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Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#781

Post by TheGrumpyBrit »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #704
microcolonel wrote: post #663

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This form of condescension is a major part of why remainers have utterly failed to make their case. Remainers clearly believe they are better than brexiters, but do not address the issues which matter (lack of control on political matters which affect the lives of average people: trade, standards, communications, intellectual property, immigration) to the people they are ostensibly trying to convince. The Brexit refe…

Whichever way one voted, we were sold a pup. Both sides lied. Which makes the case and result, either way, rather academic. Farage admitted the morning after the result that the £350m a week to the NHS was a lie. A promise that undoubtedly had considerable impact with the current austerity NHS funding crisis.

Except the bus never actually said we'd be giving £350m per week to the NHS. It said "We send the EU £350m a week - let's fund our NHS instead." Nobody in their right mind would assume that means we'd just divert all that money to the NHS, nor is that a decision that the Leave campaigners can make - it's simply a statement that the NHS is grossly underfunded while we send billions of pounds a year across the channel.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#782

Post by mrec »

jashmatthews wrote: post #725
sonnyblarney wrote: post #607

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The gains that Germany and France will make in EU oriented financials services will pale in comparison to the loss of a major trading partner. Remember that the EU is becoming less and less important over time as a financial services market, even the UK's financial services sector has become less dependant on it over time. The juicier fruit is in the rest of the world. There's quite a lot of real trade between the EU…

> The juicier fruit is in the rest of the world. The rest of the world has moved on. Australia and other former colonies have no interest in an FTA where the UK gets the better end of the deal. New Zealand already has a comprehensive FTA with China. What do they need the UK for?

> FTA where the UK gets the better end of the deal

FTAs aren't zero-sum. Free trade benefits both parties; neither needs to get a "better end".

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#783

Post by workmandan »

growlist wrote: post #474
pas wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> gangsterism could you explain that a bit?

The EU's plan from the start has been to make the process so painful as to dissuade anyone else from trying. Martin Selmayr was boasting that he has managed to trap the UK.

As they rightly should! I voted remain and would do so again in a heartbeat but if you have an exclusive members only club what use is it if leaving has no consequences? The UK most certainly should be punished if it leaves the EU. Otherwise you undermine the entire organisation.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#784

Post by davedx »

makomk wrote: post #601
mikekchar wrote: post #543

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, they didn't really opt out of the Euro. It is completely unfeasible at the time. Originally they were going to go with the Euro and to start the transition they linked the pound to the deutsche mark. However, the German economy was crushing the British economy and this pushed interest rates in the UK to over 10% (Fun fact: I was getting 12% interest in my savings account in the UK). Mortgage rates were ab…

Part of the reason the Eurozone's in the mess it is right now is that, for the most part, the EU didn't let the fact that the Euro was completely infeasible for particular countries get in the way of converting them over to it anyway. The UK wasn't the only country with similar problems, but others like Italy didn't opt out and are in a fine state now as a result. In that sense the British opt-out worked well for us.

> the Euro was completely infeasible for particular countries

Which countries was the Euro "completely infeasible" for, and what are the facts demonstrating this statement is true? It's a very strong assertion.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#785

Post by mschuetz »

rdm_blackhole wrote: post #699

I guess one thing that many people are missing is why the "leave" vote won in the first place. If Europe is so great why did some people had the desire to leave it? Surely they were not all brainwashed or lobotomized? The EU is now trying to make the UK pay an extraordinary price in order to warn the other countries that leaving the EU is not a choice to be taken lightly. This kind of technique is known as bullying a…

> The EU is now trying to make the UK pay an extraordinary price in order to warn the other countries that leaving the EU is not a choice to be taken lightly.

No, the EU is showing the UK that it can't cherry pick all the advantages without shouldering any of the responsibilities.

> It certainly has not delivered on its promises and now it faces a backlash from its citizens.

It absolutely delivered on a great amount of promises and did an excellent job of unifying the bargaining power of its individual states on a world scale. Not saying that there aren't any issues, but we'd be so much worse off without the union. Using some parts that didn't work out well as a reason to shun the EU is like shooting yourself in the foot because your toe hurts.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#786

Post by mikekchar »

wahern wrote: post #759
makomk wrote: post #601

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the reason the Eurozone's in the mess it is right now is that, for the most part, the EU didn't let the fact that the Euro was completely infeasible for particular countries get in the way of converting them over to it anyway. The UK wasn't the only country with similar problems, but others like Italy didn't opt out and are in a fine state now as a result. In that sense the British opt-out worked well for us.

By that logic the US shouldn't have a single currency, either. I get that a single currency is problematic. Arguably it is problematic even in the US, after all this time. But it doesn't necessarily follow that a single currency is fundamentally infeasible. The US isn't crippled because of it. By contrast, the poster gave a very concrete explanation why adoption of the Euro by the UK was [then] infeasible.

I have to say that I actually agree with makomk. It was a good idea to opt out of the Euro. It was good for the UK and it was good for the EU. The issue I was originally trying to address was the impression that the UK had some special negotiating power to opt out of things they didn't want. In this case, I think it was mutually beneficial.

The point about other European countries is well taken and I believe there have been talks to get some countries out of the Euro zone. In part this is a big deal because countries like Germany don't want to prop up countries that are in financial difficulty. They have no controls for dealing with these problems and the result is that you need cash infusions from the EU to keep it all swimming.

But that's really the point, isn't it? How much of a "Union" do you want? It even gets to the heart of why some people want Briton to leave the EU.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#787

Post by Juliate »

justaguyhere wrote: post #651
yholio wrote: post #41

The Brexit promise is something nobody can deliver on. It was a lie, you cannot force the EU to accept an unfavorable trade deal. If only for the reason that it would set an exceptionally bad precedent and everybody would want their own deal, to pick and choose the parts of EU membership that are favorable to them, leading the EU to implode. Somebody needs to own up to that lie and accept that a "no deal" outcome, wh…

This should be a lesson for all voters across the world - think for a minute before voting. At least try to understand what you're voting on. We can blame all we want on the media, politicians etc etc, but in the end, we can't deny Brexit is the result of a properly, democratically conducted election - voters need to take at least some responsibility. No amount of "voters' remorse" is going to help now.

It's also a major lesson for governments around the world (that their military already know though): information intoxication works.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#788

Post by gambiting »

TheGrumpyBrit wrote: post #780
dTal wrote: post #668

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The original intent? What original intent was that? Brexit was always light on detail, and that is coming home to roost. When pressed, most Brexit supporters I've spoken to show absolutely no interest in the dismal nitty gritty of politics, preferring to spout shallow platitudes like "why can't they just get on with it". The silence from chief Brexiteers Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson has been profoundly deafening.

There was no need for detail, because the WTO already provides a framework for trade agreements. That was the assumed state people voted on - talk of a deal came afterwards, and was considered by many to be an attempt to do "Brexit in name only", causing a situation where we're still obligated to the EU but no longer have any MEPs.

>>That was the assumed state people voted on

I can't believe anyone would make such an assumption. I know some people who 1) voted leave 2) are perfectly aware that under WTO rules their businesses would literally have to close because they trade with EU and their European partners won't accept a ~20% hike on the price of British products due to non-EU custom duties. They all wanted out of EU because they don't like the immigrants, because they think Brussels has too much power, but they all wanted easy trade with the EU. WTO trade is not what they voted for.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#789

Post by boudin »

TheGrumpyBrit wrote: post #773
justaguyhere wrote: post #651

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This should be a lesson for all voters across the world - think for a minute before voting. At least try to understand what you're voting on. We can blame all we want on the media, politicians etc etc, but in the end, we can't deny Brexit is the result of a properly, democratically conducted election - voters need to take at least some responsibility. No amount of "voters' remorse" is going to help now.

The thing is, there was no talk of a deal before the referendum. The vote was simply Stay or Go, with the assumption being that we would simply fall back to WTO rules. All this talk of negotiating a deal came after the vote. In that sense, a No Deal Brexit is closer to what the people voted for than any deal. Contrary to "voters remorse", I know plenty of Brexit supporters who are celebrating the defeat of what they…

I've never seen anything in the Brexit campaign saying that the goal was to fall back to WTO rules between UK and EU.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#790

Post by DanBC »

justaguyhere wrote: post #651
yholio wrote: post #41

The Brexit promise is something nobody can deliver on. It was a lie, you cannot force the EU to accept an unfavorable trade deal. If only for the reason that it would set an exceptionally bad precedent and everybody would want their own deal, to pick and choose the parts of EU membership that are favorable to them, leading the EU to implode. Somebody needs to own up to that lie and accept that a "no deal" outcome, wh…

This should be a lesson for all voters across the world - think for a minute before voting. At least try to understand what you're voting on. We can blame all we want on the media, politicians etc etc, but in the end, we can't deny Brexit is the result of a properly, democratically conducted election - voters need to take at least some responsibility. No amount of "voters' remorse" is going to help now.

> is the result of a properly, democratically conducted election

Hang on, one side was found to have lied and was fined for that.

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