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Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

nytimes.com

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Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#781

Post by quadrangle »

root_axis wrote: post #593
coffeemug wrote: post #561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody owes you not selling your data either. But social networks got so big and powerful that we're developing specialized norms for this sort of stuff because on balance it's better to live in a society where our data doesn't get sold. The same is true for speech and platforms -- nobody owes you one, but these companies accrue the astronomical benefits of massive network effects and are changing the ecology of our…

> Nobody owes you not selling your data either. Indeed. I take the same stance with regard to Facebook and others. If you don't want them to sell your data, stop willingly giving them your data. > nobody owes you one, but these companies accrue the astronomical benefits of massive network effects and are changing the ecology of our society I don't dispute the massive impact of social media on society, but ultimately…

"willingly" implies "willfully" and even "wittingly" and near-zero of the people Facebook tracks actually understand the depth of tracking or even a hint of it.

Facebook is abusively invasive, and no amount of appeals to user choice changes that. Victim-blaming is a real thing and a real problem.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#782

Post by quadrangle »

joe_the_user wrote: post #579
coffeemug wrote: post #561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody owes you not selling your data either. But social networks got so big and powerful that we're developing specialized norms for this sort of stuff because on balance it's better to live in a society where our data doesn't get sold. The same is true for speech and platforms -- nobody owes you one, but these companies accrue the astronomical benefits of massive network effects and are changing the ecology of our…

It's reasonable to impose free speech norms in exchange because on balance it will result in a better world than the counterfactual. Why exactly? The New York Times and the wire services were once the primary venue for most newspaper publication. There was never a requirement that anyone be able to write articles for them. The thing is allowing garbage views into "record of note" publications seriously empowers them.…

Free speech norms ≠ free speech absolutism.

People could rightly have complained from a "free speech" position if the NYT published only left-wing letters-to-the-editor. They could also rightly complain if the NYT explicitly refused to publish a totally reasonable opinion piece (or more extreme: refuse a paid ad that was totally reasonable) because of tangential critiques of the author's statements in other contexts.

Does that mean the NYT would have to do whatever the complainers say? No. But such complaints fairly relate to the ideas of "free speech norms" regardless of the NYT being an independent business.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#783

Post by raintrees »

barry-cotter wrote: post #575
raintrees wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I choose to see it as an opportunity for the players that wish to take on the challenge of providing another platform that will cater to those who wish to pay for a given service without concern for the information being posted, assuming it does not violate the values behind the Golden Rule. As long as there is no coercion, let people come to their own agreements. I appreciate free speech, it allows me to read/hear o…

Good luck with that when Visa and MasterCard wil kick you off their payment processing network and get other payment processors to do the same within hours. Cartel behaviour, right? SubscribeStar had eight payment processors. Now it has none. Transcript of a call from Patreon’s Censorship department and a creator. It doesn’t take much reading between the lines to know it’s payment processors. https://docs.google.com/…

I remember reading in multiple places that an admired design point of the Internet is its ability to route around damage.

I believe crypto-currencies are, among other things, an attempt to route around the damage of payment processing blockades... And I would expect that to eventually (if not already in reality) include SWIFT and similar fiat currency monitoring systems.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#784

Post by root_axis »

quadrangle wrote: post #781
root_axis wrote: post #593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody owes you not selling your data either. Indeed. I take the same stance with regard to Facebook and others. If you don't want them to sell your data, stop willingly giving them your data. > nobody owes you one, but these companies accrue the astronomical benefits of massive network effects and are changing the ecology of our society I don't dispute the massive impact of social media on society, but ultimately…

"willingly" implies "willfully" and even "wittingly" and near-zero of the people Facebook tracks actually understand the depth of tracking or even a hint of it. Facebook is abusively invasive, and no amount of appeals to user choice changes that. Victim-blaming is a real thing and a real problem.

> "willingly" implies "willfully" and even "wittingly" and near-zero of the people Facebook tracks actually understand the depth of tracking or even a hint of it.

They don't understand the full depth, but they know enough to understand that Facebook is violating their privacy in ways that they don't understand. They know that Facebook is unhealthy and insecure. Anyone with any political leaning has a lot to say about the ills of Facebook. People pretty much get the idea that Facebook is a bad actor.

> Facebook is abusively invasive, and no amount of appeals to user choice changes that

It's not an appeal to user choice, it's an appeal to basic property rights. If I buy a bunch of servers and throw them up on the internet I can do whatever I want with them, it's not my fault if you choose to access my servers, at my expense, and litter it with your own personal data. Of course Facebook is abusive, but there's literally zero reason you are obligated to use Facebook. ...it's an app, just uninstall it.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#785

Post by nicky0 »

mcguire wrote: post #457
coffeemug wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Freedom of Speech is not the right to be heard. People keep saying this and repeating it, but as far as I can tell this meme is destructive and wrong. Freedom of speech isn't just a legal assurance that congress shall make no law abridging it. It is also a set of cultural norms rooted deeply in a long lineage of hard won ideas. It is Evelyn Hall's principle "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the de…

Careless remarks? " Before your stupid social justice feminine bullshit, [mass murders] didn't happen on this scale, it's crazy. This is a disease of the modern age. YOU are responsible for perpetuating it, by disenfranchising these poor fucking guys who don't have any options left. When someone takes the option of absolute insanely last resort, you have to wonder, what kind of system is producing them? And I'll tell…

The "wouldn't rape you" tweet is crass but the first, longer quote is a perfectly reasonable point of view.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#786

Post by nicky0 »

jakelazaroff wrote: post #397
ggreer wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment doesn't address my points at all. First, none of those sites are Patreon competitors. Second, I never claimed alternatives didn't exist. Third, in context it's pretty clear that Sargon is trying to insult racists. I don't know much about him, but from that clip it seems like his shtick is to get attention by making points in controversial ways. Well, mission accomplished (in every sense of the phrase). M…

I'm addressing point 1: > John Milton, Thomas Paine, and John Stuart Mill all made the point (in various ways) that every time you stop someone from saying or publishing an idea, you are also preventing others who want to hear or read that idea from doing so. But no one who wants to hear or read racism is prevented from doing so — they just can't do it on Patreon . The parent's concept of free speech is fully compati…

But the content in question was not on Patreon or even linked via Patreon. The ban was for comments made on an unrelated third party recording.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#787

Post by nicky0 »

lykr0n wrote: post #104
losvedir wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Or Visa likewise today -- it's understood that other people will use the same plastic to pay for things you morally disapprove of, just as they could use cash. But it's positioned as a neutral carrier, and nobody cares (I think). Heh, well I hope so. But that recent NYTimes story[0] about how mass shootings used guns and ammo bought with a credit card makes me unsure about that. I'd have thought using cash vs credi…

The takeaway from that article I got was that companies are handing out credit to anybody who wants it- and some people take advantage of that when they want to go out with a bang. Hellfire would rain down on any Network (Visa, MC, Amex, Discover) who thought about refusing to process firearm purchases. The NRA, any republican, and liberals like myself who support fundamental rights would be rightly pissed that a har…

> myself who support fundamental rights would be rightly pissed that a hard-to-avoid service such as the Visa network was making a decision on what I can or cannot do with my money.

But that is exactly what is happening. Visa is saying to Patreon - don't let people give money to XYZ persons via your platform.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#788

Post by nicky0 »

KozmoNau7 wrote: post #218
orthecreedence wrote: post #33

I'm torn about this. On the one hand, Patreon shouldn't have to do business with people they don't like. On the other hand, at what point do we accept that we have different viewpoints and live and let live? The biggest one for me in recent history was Cloudflare arbitrarily deciding to stop hosting the Daily Stormer. Sure, DS is vile, but at the point we start enforcing censorship on a whim instead of hardened polic…

The reason why Patreon et. al. are deplatforming people who make reprehensible statements, it's because they risk losing ad revenue. Other companies will stop running ads if they risk them popping up on Uncle Joe's Lynchin' & White Sheets page. It's a purely profit-motivated move. As long as people and corporations are motivated solely by profit, you will see this move to "truth in the middle" milquetoast centrist pr…

Patreon doesn't run advertising.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#789

Post by quadrangle »

root_axis wrote: post #784
quadrangle wrote: post #781

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"willingly" implies "willfully" and even "wittingly" and near-zero of the people Facebook tracks actually understand the depth of tracking or even a hint of it. Facebook is abusively invasive, and no amount of appeals to user choice changes that. Victim-blaming is a real thing and a real problem.

> "willingly" implies "willfully" and even "wittingly" and near-zero of the people Facebook tracks actually understand the depth of tracking or even a hint of it. They don't understand the full depth, but they know enough to understand that Facebook is violating their privacy in ways that they don't understand. They know that Facebook is unhealthy and insecure. Anyone with any political leaning has a lot to say about…

The same general sense of a problem can be said for people eating meat, driving cars, buying plastic disposables, sending kids to schools that focus on test-prep instead of life skills… we live in a society full of ills and many or most of the people have some vague sense of it.

Are people supposed to all become individual experts about the problems and learn the best ways to opt out of each and every aspect of unhealthy parts of our culture? Why people do what they do and how things work overall are much more complex than simple quips you're making. No comment the size of what we're typing can get at much of the complexity here.

Your whole "no obligation" argument is just so simplistic and dismissive. Facebook actively pushes people to use it using every method they can think of from subsidizing access fees in much of the world that is late to the internet to using every addictive psychological trick anyone has discovered.

This has nothing to do with property rights. That's just non sequitur. That argument is as reasonable as saying that Facebook is just a bunch of math, since that's all programs are, and then arguing something about how math can't hurt anyone or some similar nonsense.

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