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Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

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Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#781

Post by jononor »

thehardsphere wrote: post #756
Houshalter wrote: post #734

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Folks will gladly loan the hangman the rope that he will use to hang you, your family, and your neighbors — all because of "purity of belief" in free speech. Sorry, hate to break it to you, but these illiberal forces are a clear and present danger to this comfortable society you call home. Replace like 3 words in your comment, and I could make it into a rant advocating persecution of Communists. Which has happened b…

>Replace like 3 words in your comment, and I could make it into a rant advocating persecution of Communists. Which has happened before in the US. But it's ok now because it's against your political enemies? If by "it's against your political enemies" means "it's against people who want to overthrow your society and replace it with a repressive one" then the two cases are exactly the same in principle and only differ…

You are aware that opinions on what constitutes 'repressive' and not varies?

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#782

Post by croon »

meric wrote: post #752
mbrock wrote: post #748

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious, if you imagine a possible historical situation, let's say a German business owner in the 1930s that took a stance of not offering services to Nazi organizations, does that appear commendable, or bad in the same "slippery slope" way that you apply in the present situation? It seems to me that such a business owner would seem in hindsight to have been acting virtuously, and it seems that businesses that di…

> It seems to me that such a business owner would seem in hindsight to have been acting virtuously, No it wouldn't - There is a large percentage of population joining Nazi parties for convenience, for their career or even out of fear. Are you going to deny them the food you sell from your shop? If they are Nazi's, are they still not human beings deserving to access food in the market? Does someone being a member of t…

> If they are Nazi's, are they still not human beings deserving to access food in the market?

No, they can stop being nazi's at any point. Literally in less than a second.

Blacks, jews, gays, disabled people can't.

Stop trying to equate the two.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#783

Post by unityByFreedom »

salimmadjd wrote: post #751

Principles are tested in hard times. In half of Europe Nazis were replaced by Stalinists...hope we're not on the same path. Legally 1st amendment is protection against the government, but principally it should be applied to any entity with national or global power. Racist, Nazis or anyone can say what they want (minus explicit call for violence), and the opposing side has the equal right to prove them wrong. That's t…

> principally it should be applied to any entity with national or global power

It's ridiculous to call Cloudflare this. There are tons of alternative CDNs. They have as much "power" as your local bookstore.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#784

Post by Chris2048 »

nardi wrote: post #540
genon wrote: post #324

Absolutely correct. He is also effectively saying that since he can and will remove sites he personally doesn't like, that he personally approves of every other site using Cloudflare. The excuse he uses for terminating TDS is an absolute crock; if TDS genuinely did falsely and sincerely claim that Cloudflare supports them, then Prince could and should have simply asked them to remove that claim. It's an outrage that…

Gender, race, age, sexual orientation, etc. are “protected classes” that you can’t discriminate on. Being a Nazi is not a protected class. If you have a business, you can feel free to discriminate against Nazis. And you probably should.

This isn't so clear cut though. Religion is usually included in that list, even though That is pertly ideological. Recently, gender and/or sexual orientation/identity has become arguably ideological too. Racial identity has some problematic examples (are jews white? what about light-skinned hispanics?)

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#785

Post by camillomiller »

0x8BADF00D wrote: post #747
camillomiller wrote: post #676

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The right to your own ideas is not an absolute. It's a pact you have to respect and it involves respecting other people rights first. Neonazi and white supremacist are betraying this social pact by furthering the idea of a superior race and the extermination of the different, that's why they're walking a really thin line when it comes to their right to First Amendment protection. You just resorted to what I call "the…

> The right to your own ideas is not an absolute. It's a pact you have to respect and it involves respecting other people rights first. You just defined a thoughtcrime. Did you never read 1984?

What are you talking about? You shouldn't have the right to setup an organization to proactively further killing just because you're not actually killing all the time. HOW in the world is a white supremacist different from a radicalized muslim american citizen who never wore a suicide vest but is strongly convinced that all the infidels should die? Why isn't he allowed to express this thoughts freely? Do you see the double standard here?

This has nothing to do with 1984.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#786

Post by jwdunne »

Zahreddine wrote: post #774

Just because someone does horrible shit in the name of the Nazi party does not mean the Nazi party itself is at fault.

Are you being serious? The Nazi party is based on doing horrible shit to minorities. That's the ideology, that's what the leadership believed and that's the reason why people joined them.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#787

Post by coldtea »

mbrock wrote: post #748
chvid wrote: post #599

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have any sympathy for the Daily Stormer. I just don't see where this is stopping. What else needs to be taken down? /pol/? Who about Breitbart? Or maybe some 2nd WW Nazi propaganda? Or something from the US civil war? You guys seem to be ok with this very slippery slope being assessed by random private companies accountable to who knows. And then you have the nerve to call us who believes that limits of free…

I'm curious, if you imagine a possible historical situation, let's say a German business owner in the 1930s that took a stance of not offering services to Nazi organizations, does that appear commendable, or bad in the same "slippery slope" way that you apply in the present situation? It seems to me that such a business owner would seem in hindsight to have been acting virtuously, and it seems that businesses that di…

>I'm curious, if you imagine a possible historical situation, let's say a German business owner in the 1930s that took a stance of not offering services to Nazi organizations, does that appear commendable, or bad in the same "slippery slope" way that you apply in the present situation?

How about the possible historical situation where a business owners doesn't offer services to the irish, jews, gays, blacks, etc?

Because those things have also happened -- and when you say it's ok to refuse those services to a group, you open a window for refusing those services to other groups too.

Just because consensus or power today is with the "good groups" (as far as you're concerned) doesn't change that fact.

It's even worse when what's right and wrong is even more muddy. E.g. someone criticizing their own country (like the Vietnam war protests) or in favor of a regime change etc.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#788

Post by mirimir »

chvid wrote: post #599
matttproud wrote: post #591

Earlier quoted context omitted.

^^^ The parent comment hits the ball out of the park. The commentary on past posts on HN and elsewhere floors me. It seems one or two things are prevalent: 1. Folks will gladly loan the hangman the rope that he will use to hang you, your family, and your neighbors — all because of "purity of belief" in free speech. Sorry, hate to break it to you, but these illiberal forces are a clear and present danger to this comfo…

I don't have any sympathy for the Daily Stormer. I just don't see where this is stopping. What else needs to be taken down? /pol/? Who about Breitbart? Or maybe some 2nd WW Nazi propaganda? Or something from the US civil war? You guys seem to be ok with this very slippery slope being assessed by random private companies accountable to who knows. And then you have the nerve to call us who believes that limits of free…

That is indeed a tough question. And to Cloudflare's credit, they discuss it at some length. I'm quite impressed.

But in any case, it's Cloudflare's business, and so it's Cloudflare's decision to make. What concerns me more are censorship mechanisms involving DNS and BGP games. Which the US has been quite fond of using, to take down what it considers to be illegal content. That's a vulnerability of the Internet itself, reflecting continuing US dominance.

So hey, we have Tor and other overlay networks.

Edit: And just to be clear, I'm a communitarian anarchist. I'm not at all sympathetic to fascists. But I do oppose all censorship.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#789

Post by coldtea »

meric wrote: post #752
mbrock wrote: post #748

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious, if you imagine a possible historical situation, let's say a German business owner in the 1930s that took a stance of not offering services to Nazi organizations, does that appear commendable, or bad in the same "slippery slope" way that you apply in the present situation? It seems to me that such a business owner would seem in hindsight to have been acting virtuously, and it seems that businesses that di…

> It seems to me that such a business owner would seem in hindsight to have been acting virtuously, No it wouldn't - There is a large percentage of population joining Nazi parties for convenience, for their career or even out of fear. Are you going to deny them the food you sell from your shop? If they are Nazi's, are they still not human beings deserving to access food in the market? Does someone being a member of t…

>Does someone being a member of the Nazi party mean we can let them starve to death? Shoot them and push them into a trench even?

Historically, yes.

Re: Why We Terminated Daily Stormer

#790

Post by mirimir »

abalone wrote: post #719
nemothekid wrote: post #653

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You guys seem to be ok with this very slippery slope being assessed by random private companies accountable to who knows. To me its strange someone would consider closing down /pol/ a "slippery slope". I am amazed that someone would consider 4chan a moral compass for the type of things their admins should put up with. moot has closed down /pol/ for this very reason in the past with even less "political" awareness t…

> If you are concerned about being silenced by a corporate vendor, then choose your partners wisely. The issue here is more nuanced. It's about any site on the Internet being censored by a mob. That's why the YouTube or Facebook analogies don't hold. You could always host the content yourself. But DDoS can knock out any unprotected host anywhere. And DDoS protection isn't really something you can DIY. So the issue he…

It's harder to DDoS Tor onion sites.
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