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They Used To Last 50 Years

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Re: They Used To Last 50 Years

#781

Post by galdosdi »

cc439 wrote: post #757
chinathrow wrote: post #669

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For a company, a product that is too reliable is unprofitable in the long term and so they adjust by making sure that the product works beyond the terms of the warranty but not much more. My 2002 Volvo V70, which I bought second hand a couple of years ago, is so reliable that I consider buying a Volvo again.

>(W)hich I bought second hand a couple of years ago Would you consider buying a NEW Volvo? If not, your purchase exerts little to no pressure on the only market which Volvo is concerned with, namely the market for new cars. Yes, a reputation for reliability increases the demand for used Volvos thereby increasing the resale value which positively factors into the decision to purchase a new Volvo. However, the increase…

Resale value definitely affects new car purchasing.

For one, lease prices are partly determined by the expected resale value, and a lot of new car drivers get them by leasing them

Re: They Used To Last 50 Years

#782

Post by Obi_Juan_Kenobi »

threepipeproblm wrote: post #564
skywhopper wrote: post #529

I seriously doubt a real study of appliance reliability over the past 70 years would show that the stuff sold in the 50s is actually more reliable or longer-lasting than the stuff sold today. Sure, you can find appliances that old that still work fine, but you don't see the ones that broke down after a year or two--they were junked decades ago and forgotten about. Since you can't grow the supply of working 50-year-ol…

Right, no one would ever make products intentionally worse as part of creeping modernism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebus_cartel No one would ever, for economic reasons, plan (or just allow) for the lifespan of their products to decrease. http://resource.co/article/lifetimes-household-appliances-be... Technology is always getting better! The old timers who almost universally report this phenomenon just don't kn…

The thing about the lightbulb collusion is that it's exceptional for being one of the only examples of such collusion that's verified.

I don't doubt it exists in some cases, but if it were as ubiquitous as many say, I'd suspect to find evidence of other conspiracies. Many other industries also lack a centralized organization (one ostensibly for standardization) to facilitate such a conspiracy. Overall I just find the argument very weak, especially in the face of normal market forces and cost-competition being sufficient to explain much of the observed changes.

I do agree that appliances likely represent a real decline in durability over the past couple decades.

Re: They Used To Last 50 Years

#783

Post by platz »

sqeaky wrote: post #778
platz wrote: post #759

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Capitalism maximizes benefits to Capital, not consumers or labor.

I think the implication is that if consumers are well informed they will lookout for their own needs and try to buy goods of sufficient quality. If enough consumers do this the market for junk should fail. In some markets it has and in others it hasn't, apparently in appliances junk prevails.

> If enough consumers do this the market for junk should fail

I think over the long run we've seen evidence for the opposite due to consolidation. Markets aren't perfect; so I am highly skeptical of such a claim.

it almost seems like the more the market matters to society, the less choice consumers actually have.

I am more interested in trends over time than point-evaluations of dynamics at a specific moments.

Re: They Used To Last 50 Years

#784

Post by roseburg »

Spooky23 wrote: post #673
modeopfer wrote: post #553

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also studied engineering and I think your professor missed the point. You don't overengineer stuff anymore nowadays, not because you want to scam your consumer out of money (aka planned obsolence) but because the design tools got better and every gram of metal or plastic and every screw and every operation like welding, glueing and so on costs money. Nowadays simulation tools, new manufacturing processes and experi…

Fundamentally, you can't serve a turd and call it steak. Power tools are an example of how to get it right. If I go to Home Depot and look for a drill, it's obvious from the branding, battery, warranty and physical characteristics which DeWalt drill is the "ok" consumer one, and which is a professional tool. (I use this as an example because I bought one yesterday) The problem with consumer appliances is that they us…

Author here, you are absolutely right. Want to see me angry? You should have seen me when I found out my 90 year old neighbor lady is on her second Whirlpool made vertical modular washer in the past 5 years. (top loading washer with the led lights on the control panel) Not everyone can afford to be ripped off and sold garbage washing machines that WILL break within 3 years.

I think your power tool analogy is a good one. Same with most consumer goods, people know that when they are buying a plastic version of something that it likely won't last, so they wrestle through the tradeoffs.

Re: They Used To Last 50 Years

#785

Post by zer00eyz »

iNerdier wrote: post #463
abakker wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Second. This is the best thing on YouTube. If you like more workshop instructions, check out "this old Tony"

Absolutely second this, I love 'this old tony' and I have no experience at all with machining in the slightest. AvE by contrast is I think a bit of an acquired taste.

You should check out abom as well. He is a bit more hardcore as a manual machinist but I binge watched his whole channel and still catch up with him regularly.

Re: They Used To Last 50 Years

#786

Post by galdosdi »

sqeaky wrote: post #779
deegles wrote: post #753

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's a conscious, malicious strategy. Just a reality of manufacturing. Let's imagine a market where 1,000 people need a widget, with 10 new people per year. You design and develop a 100% reliable widget and quickly sell 1,000 of them (recouping your development costs). You need to sell 10 per year to stay in business. Other companies see your success and rush to market with a less reliable but cheaper w…

So this is why Dyson no longer sells vacuums and Apple No longer sells phones. Sorry for the sarcasm Premium products can command premium prices. They just don't move the same volume.

The parent was talking about premium reliability, not all kinds of premium.

The issue is a premium that people can't notice for many years. Apple's phones are not premium in a reliability sense, so are not a good example.

Selling reliability can be a serious problem when nobody will know what's reliable for sure without waiting several years. There's some tricks, like offering a warranty and heavily marketing the reliability, but the consumer still has to reason about the chances the vendor will still exist and be solvent, whether the warranty will be annoying to cash, how honest the vendor will be about allowing claims, etc. Until a company has been around long enough to have a reputation, it can't really get out of that

Re: They Used To Last 50 Years

#787

Post by sqeaky »

dougmany wrote: post #730
steven777400 wrote: post #674

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to know more about this too, and how Tesla and other companies plan to address it. I'm particularly concerned about the potential environmental impact of dumping a bunch of batteries into landfills. Is there a battery reburishment/recycling program for these vehicles?

I think at the 1000 charge cycle point, the batteries degrade but are not useless. There is an idea that they can then be used as grid tied storage or in places where AH/Kg does not matter as much.

I thought they took the guts out and seperated the constituent parts and put back in the raw material side of the gigafactory. Or did I just make that up?

Re: They Used To Last 50 Years

#788

Post by sqeaky »

platz wrote: post #783
sqeaky wrote: post #778

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the implication is that if consumers are well informed they will lookout for their own needs and try to buy goods of sufficient quality. If enough consumers do this the market for junk should fail. In some markets it has and in others it hasn't, apparently in appliances junk prevails.

> If enough consumers do this the market for junk should fail I think over the long run we've seen evidence for the opposite due to consolidation. Markets aren't perfect; so I am highly skeptical of such a claim. it almost seems like the more the market matters to society, the less choice consumers actually have. I am more interested in trends over time than point-evaluations of dynamics at a specific moments.

I think in some markets it has worked great. My cheap car, a Hyundai Elantra is at just about 100,000 and I have not had to replace any major components.

Back in the 80s and 90s Ford and Chevy were making real junk that wouldn't last long, and people that wanted better and started buying Toyota, Honda and Hyundai.

If my Elantra is anything like my aunt's it will last until I wreck it. Hers was wrecked when another driver ran a red light and stopped her 210,000 mile streak. I hear the American companies are doing better, and things like Ford Fiestas are expected to last, I think we need more time to see.

Re: They Used To Last 50 Years

#789

Post by skykooler »

sangnoir wrote: post #777
sqeaky wrote: post #773

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is so I don't see why people ignore. I bet you can go buy high end appliances that will last 50 years. But would anyone want to be using it in 50 years?

> But would anyone want to be using it in 50 years? I would happily use a washing machine, dishwasher or fridge that is 50 years old. The only tech advances related to those gadgets that would concern me are CFCs in the refrigerant.

Which in and of itself is not a problem until the refrigerator finally needs to be disposed of.

Re: They Used To Last 50 Years

#790

Post by majormajor »

sangnoir wrote: post #777
sqeaky wrote: post #773

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is so I don't see why people ignore. I bet you can go buy high end appliances that will last 50 years. But would anyone want to be using it in 50 years?

> But would anyone want to be using it in 50 years? I would happily use a washing machine, dishwasher or fridge that is 50 years old. The only tech advances related to those gadgets that would concern me are CFCs in the refrigerant.

Eh. When I moved from an apartment with a ~30 year old dishwasher to one with a new one, I was pretty startled by how much cleaner it got my dishes when I didn't pre-rinse them as much as I used to have to.
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