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Request For Research: Basic Income

blog.ycombinator.com

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Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#781
post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Childcare is dying for some automation. 1 person can care for ~3 very young children( Worse, these are all minimum numbers. You need extra staff to cover someone being sick, or turn people away.

Why is child care something that should be automated? Doesn't it make sense to spend a lot of high-value human attention on small children? Humans are not a product. They are an end in themselves. It's like trying to automate your friends or your spouse.

People often automate human interaction. Getting an email reminder a few days before a wedding anniversary or a friend's birthday is hardly dehumanizing. If a scheduling assistant means a daycare worker can care for 4 infants instead of just 3, that's a huge savings for many working families.

How about dippers that can wireless notify you when there wet? Or for something that exists, a baby monitor so a caretaker can keep up with a crying child while another sleeps.

PS: Don't forget it's not just daycare workers who can use assistance, actual parents are also run raggid while caring for infants.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#782
If I weren't busy doing Docker, I would be doing this. In fact given enough time and resources, I'm confident I will eventually find a way to leverage Docker to advance the goal of universal income somehow :)

Figuring out basic income is perhaps the most important thing we could do as a society, because it will unlock the energy and creativity we're lacking to solve every other important problem.

Trying to solve global warming, energy, crime or government without basic income is like running a marathon on one leg.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#783

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but all of those sound like things that are going to help people who were already going to be successful to be even more successful. College debt, for example, is a problem for those who were successful enough to get into college into the first place, and who, simply by getting into college, are already increasing their lifetime earnings by millions of dollars. Technological services for K-12 ed is pushing a s…

I'm not a big believer in minimizing college debt. I'm a believer in minimizing college . People who grow up in wealthy families naturally find themselves on a college track that seamlessly routes them to elite schools when they're 18 years old. People who grow up in poverty aren't on that track and might not even have much agency (due to their circumstances, requirements to work young, entanglements with the law) un…

I have a theory that making education free and universally accessible, meaning anyone who is willing to put in the time can get a bachelor's degree in any major they want, would remove the majority of the signaling effect that a 4 year degree has. There would still be some signaling from holders of elite college degrees, but I argue that it is a separate problem.

I do agree with you in principle about the HR director thing. College is treated too much like a white collar vocational school.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#784
Both in regards to decreasing the cost of living and also increasing prosperity for everyone, the clearest answer to me is to purposefully and meaningfully increase investment in areas outside of San Francisco.

The Valley, through a variety of circumstances, is now home to the highest concentration of technology companies, and is unsurprisingly one of the most expensive places to live in the world.

The are known economic forces [1] that cause clustering of similar firms in small areas, and there's no doubt that this is a net positive for both the city and the individual businesses, at least at first. The incredible concentration both of talent and wealth in San Francisco and Silicon Valley is a clear testament to the power of physical proximity.

However, I urge the technology community and specifically Y Combinator to seriously reconsider the notion that all of technology must happen on a peninsula in central California.

How this decreases the cost of living is obvious. I live in Memphis TN and I pay $500 a month on my mortgage. Further, the city of Memphis and many other cities in the US are in serious need of both talented young people and economic development. The "brain drain" is a real and devastating effect of compressing the technology ecosystem onto the West Coast. Reversing the brain drain would bring leadership, talent, and dollars to areas that need it.

I'd like to specifically call out YC for this section of their FAQ:

> Can we do it without moving to where you are?

> Sorry, no. We tried this once, and by Demo Day that startup was way behind the rest.

In every other aspect of their model, YC is open to all reasonable possibilities. They fund photo sharing apps and nuclear reactors, women and men, young and old, but NOT people who won't move to SF. This reasoning is apparently based on just a few examples. Thus, the idea that constant physical availability is a fundamentally important part funding is just conjecture.

This policy and the attitude behind it are essentially opposed to the ethos of the technologist. How does one change the world by adding incrementally to the wealth of the Bay Area? Also, it's an absurdity that I have to mention that the internet was invented so that we wouldn't have to do stuff like this anymore.

This also addresses the issue of diversity. If you want more diverse people, go to where they live. I find it an amusing contradiction that many of the people who cringe at the idea of moving to the repressive "Deep South" of Tennessee would find themselves working with people who aren't white dudes for the the first time if they ever did move.

So, I urge YC and the tech community at large to spread out from just the bay area. Reconsider the cities you came from. Be bold and try to find the opportunities that are waiting outside Silicon Valley.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_cluster

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#785

Things that would help everyone, regardless of income, without depending on a radical restructuring of entitlement spending, that seem like things startups could actually do: * Equally credible alternatives to university education for professions that don't involve students shouldering $100k-$200k in debt based on decisions they have to make when they're 18 years old. * Empirical, blinded, skills-assessment based tur…

* Alternatives to patient-present doctor-mediated health care to cover the 80% case in which doctors are expensive overkill; some combination of telemedicine and nurse-practitioners.

Doctor salary only makes up ~8.6% of overall Healthcare spending. Since, right or wrong, people want to see doctors rather than nurses when they bother to go into the hospital in person, I predict this tech will actually increase healthcare spending. The main change will just be that people seek nurse advice from home for minor issues they would have ignored previously. That may more may not be a net benefit.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#786
post #764

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Instead of Universal Basic Income, how about Universal Basic Food Stamps? It feels like, rather than a basic income, we need two orthogonal currencies: one for necessities (food, rent, utilities) and one for niceities. Everyone would just have two numbers in their bank account, for each of the country's two official currencies. Basic income would be paid in one, while all income from trade in the economy would be in…

* This is enforced by only permitting certain sellers to accept necessity-dollars, and only on certain transactions. there are so many reasons why this wouldn't work. The whole point of UBI is that you are not creating a judgemental system by which certain products are or are not reified by the system. Would tampons be covered by UBFS? Let's say then we allow for UBFS to cover female menstrual products. Would cups th…

> Pray tell how does one measure demand elasticity[0]?

The phrase "during CPI calculation" should be the key to understanding here. CPI tells you how much prices have gone up or down generally, by just sending a bunch of secret-shoppers around to measure a bunch of prices.

Knowing the treasury's current bond interest rates, the current exchange rate, and Core CPI, you can derive economy-wide aggregate demand—which is the point of the whole exercise. You can then look at any given good's economy-wide demand (i.e. the same formula, where Core CPI is calculated in terms of just that one good) relative to total demand as a time series, take their co-variance, and that's the good's demand-elasticity. (All the numbers are public at every step; there's no real way to fudge them.)

> Would tampons be covered by UBFS? Let's say then we allow for UBFS to cover female menstrual products. Would cups then be covered? Why or why not?

Again: you plug in the demand-elasticity formula and get an answer. No politics, just cold automated logic. Female menstrual products as a category are very likely to be calculated to be inelastic.

Now, how that breaks down to individual items within the category is something I didn't define. As a raw guess, the government could define base inelastic-value for the category, which would apply as a sort of rebate to all the items in that category. Any individual item's price should, after this "rebate", reflect exactly and only its additional elastic demand—making the "premium" products cost some number of nicety-dollars, while the "economy" products in that class cost "nothing" in nicety-dollar terms. (The real key there is the creation of a law preventing companies from increasing their prices in response to this—because, without market manipulation, of course prices would rise to reflect all the same competitive demand as before, plus the extra "free" votes each person got. The law would just need to force companies receiving necessity-dollars to price according to demand in an alternate world where demand was exactly [the amount of inelastic-demand] lower.)

> one word: Arbitrage.

No reason to allow individuals to trade in necessities at all, which would nearly completely prevent arbitraging opportunities. (e.g. it's obvious enough that you shouldn't be able to rent your necessity-dollar-paid apartment out on AirBnB.) Consider anything paid for in necessity-dollars to be tainted and have no legal nicety-dollar value after that.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#787
post #764

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was thinking about that, and about the story of Ferguson Missouri, where some huge portion of the (largely African American) population had arrest warrants over petty fines that had blossomed through late fees and default judgements into financial catastrophes levied by the (largely middle class white) municipal government, with the last few suggestions.

Instead of Universal Basic Income, how about Universal Basic Food Stamps? It feels like, rather than a basic income, we need two orthogonal currencies: one for necessities (food, rent, utilities) and one for niceities. Everyone would just have two numbers in their bank account, for each of the country's two official currencies. Basic income would be paid in one, while all income from trade in the economy would be in…

That's a really interesting idea, but another issue to consider is that a lot of food/housing could be considered "nicety" rather than necessity: sushi, craft beer, luxury penthouse apartments, etc. How would you decide how much of your mansion is covered by necessity money, and how much is nicety?

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#788

So, I'm sure this will get buried, but in the hopeful event of responses: How does this prevent people from spending up to their means? People who make 20k, spend to their means. People who make 50k, spend to their means. People who make 100k, spend to their means. People who make 452k, spend to their means. This is a sincere, non-snark question: people spend to their means. It's similar to packing a bag, a person ha…

I don't endorse this by any means, but you may be interested in the work of Cornell Economist Robert Frank.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_H._Frank

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#789
post #787
post #764

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Instead of Universal Basic Income, how about Universal Basic Food Stamps? It feels like, rather than a basic income, we need two orthogonal currencies: one for necessities (food, rent, utilities) and one for niceities. Everyone would just have two numbers in their bank account, for each of the country's two official currencies. Basic income would be paid in one, while all income from trade in the economy would be in…

That's a really interesting idea, but another issue to consider is that a lot of food/housing could be considered "nicety" rather than necessity: sushi, craft beer, luxury penthouse apartments, etc. How would you decide how much of your mansion is covered by necessity money, and how much is nicety?

See my sibling comment: figure out how much inelastic demand there is for a good-category, rebate that amount off of all prices using necessity-dollar allocation, and then whatever's left over is the true nicety-dollar (i.e. elastic demand) cost.

One interesting effect of this is that if you calculated it per-market, then different goods would have different inelastic-demand floors in different markets. In e.g. Vancouver, where tiny one-bedroom detached homes can cost >$1mm, there'd be a pretty large necessity-dollar allocation for rent/mortgage. In Cleveland, where houses go for $65k, it'd be much lower.

You might not want this effect—you might want to incentivize people to move to cheaper markets instead. But the network-effect of cities is another of those things economic incentives just don't seem to work very well to treat.

Re: Request For Research: Basic Income

#790
post #764

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was thinking about that, and about the story of Ferguson Missouri, where some huge portion of the (largely African American) population had arrest warrants over petty fines that had blossomed through late fees and default judgements into financial catastrophes levied by the (largely middle class white) municipal government, with the last few suggestions.

Instead of Universal Basic Income, how about Universal Basic Food Stamps? It feels like, rather than a basic income, we need two orthogonal currencies: one for necessities (food, rent, utilities) and one for niceities. Everyone would just have two numbers in their bank account, for each of the country's two official currencies. Basic income would be paid in one, while all income from trade in the economy would be in…

This sounds like unnecessary complexity as well as something that could cause problems. I don't think there is a need to restrict people to necessities when paying them a minimal income, they'll do that themselves.

It is overly judgemental of what people living on a basic income are allowed to do, thus making living on only the basic income less viable. Your mother is dying and you need to fly to a different city to visit her? Nope sorry, long distance transit is a nicety. You want to take some time to switch careers? Sorry, books are a nicety. Have back trouble? Sorry a fancy chair is a nicety. You may say that those things could be necessities but a huge fraction of goods typically a 'nicety' can be a 'necessity' in the right circumstances. Better not to tie people's hands.

I think this adds a lot of complexity, cost and bureaucracy for a net loss in how effective the basic income is.

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