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Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

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Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#771

Post by mft_ »

TMWNN wrote: post #338
xhevahir wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I spent a day or so traveling through Germany with my parents a few weeks ago as part of a (much longer) trip and a common refrain during that day was, "So much for German efficiency." Frankfurt's airport was a tiring and frustrating experience, with long delays on the tarmac, at baggage claim, at the check-in counter, etc. One rest stop on the highway was half way dismantled, with restrooms filthy enough that everyb…

>I spent a day or so traveling through Germany with my parents a few weeks ago as part of a (much longer) trip and a common refrain during that day was, "So much for German efficiency." I've heard it said that the idea that Germans are efficient is a myth. (The new Berlin airport is one example.) Germans are, rather, * rule followers* .

Individual Germans on the whole are very efficient, possibly because they have to be to survive the awful sclerotic bureaucracy in Germany. The country is a Darwinian training system. Possibly.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#772

Post by sigmoid10 »

RugnirViking wrote: post #278
sigmoid10 wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've lived in foreign places for less than 6 months and still bothered to pick up enough language to at least converse on a basic A1 level. Especially in certain regions where people don't speak english well this is almost a requirement for any daily life that is not work related. I can't imagine living somewhere for six whole years without picking up the language at all. Maybe if you actually hate the place and are…

To be fair, B1 and especially B2 are not trivial requirements. A1 you will "pick up" like you say, but it's easy to fall into a trap of remaining around A2 without sustained effortful studying. (If you try to do it through just interacting with natives with no structure it's common to fossilize mistakes which take much longer to fix, or even just become permanent) Personally I've gotten to B2 (not Germany) which is e…

B1 to B2 is a big step. Bigger than A1-2 to B1. B1 is basically just understanding people who speak slowly and clearly and being able to participate in everyday life situations. So a very gradual progression. B2 is already being able to do professional work in that language. This is what will take considerable time and active study. But it is also not a requirement for naturalisation in most countries. And many natural born citizens also never reach C1-2 level of proficiency either. So if you're B2, you may as well be counted as fully integrated.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#773

Post by mft_ »

aleph_minus_one wrote: post #258
FinnLobsien wrote: post #178

I‘m German, but I no longer live in Germany, so I can’t relate to the experience of immigrating to Germany. I think a big part of the issue is a certain German presumptuousness. There’s a general sense that Germany is a prosperous, influential country. The reason for that must be that things are done correctly in Germany. I think this is an inherited attitude that doesn’t really correspond to reality anymore as syste…

> that you can pay by card at market vendors When I (German) was on vacation in the Netherlands, I found it dystopic that you could often not pay cash, but had to use card. This "I don't want to be tracked" mentality is deeply ingrained into the feeling of many Germans. So, I would rather call this not a bug, but a feature.

Eh, it’s mostly a combination of conservative anti-digitalisation plus low-key tax avoidance.

“Privacy” is a straw man argument.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#774

Post by dofm »

simianwords wrote: post #769
dofm wrote: post #766

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://bioanth.org/about/aaba-statement-on-race-racism/

Your article: >race has become a social reality that structures societies and how we experience the world. In this regard, race is real, as is racism, and both have real biological consequences You said > Races don't exist on any biological level My suggestion: separate your moral claims and virtues from objective facts. I think you are spiralling into a maze of arguments that you yourself can't keep up with.

This is an extraordinarily obtuse comment.

You have taken the phrase "real biological consequences", which is talking about the illness, healthcare, stress, poverty etc. impact of racism on centuries of people and used it to support your essential thesis that race itself can be detected on some biological level.

This is shameful.

> I think you are spiralling into a maze of arguments that you yourself can't keep up with.

And this is projection. Bye.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#775

Post by hollerith »

oblio wrote: post #645
rayiner wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Story 2: In an international working environment, German may not matter much at the IC level. But I’ve seen countless situations where Germans exchange a glance with each other, and suddenly the final decision is not what was agreed upon in the meeting. Over time, I’ve learned that there are many unwritten rules behind the scenes, and when you speak their language, you start to understand them. I mean, how many CEO…

> I mean, how many CEOs of major German companies are non-German? A quick headcount says Mercedes, Adidas, Bayer,... https://www.consultancy.eu/news/1605/one-third-of-executives... It pays off to do the actual research before passing judgment.

CEO of Mercedes was born in Sweden to Swedish parents; has blue eyes. CEO of Adidas has a Norwegian father and grew up in Norway; has pale skin, reddish-blonde hair and blue eyes. CEO of Bayer was born and raised in the US. Last name is "Anderson". Has pale skin and blue eyes. Two of them could pass as German (at least until they started talking): most Norwegians don't really look like Germans and the CEO of Adidas is no exception.

Now let's do the top 5 companies in the US (by market cap). CEO of NVidia was born in Taiwan to Chinese parents and immigrated to the United States as a child. CEO of Google was born in India to Indian parents, came to the US after college. ditto CEO of Microsoft. CEOs of Apple and Amazon are a white men who grew up in the US.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#776

Post by hparadiz »

Laurel1234 wrote: post #733
FabCH wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are not a resident, don’t bother trying unless you plan to have 30M or more in the account. If you are a resident, you can easily open a normal account in minutes… unless you are US, Russian or Belarus citizen.

I've opened (and used) a Dukascopy account with neither a Swiss passport nor even setting foot in Switzerland. And I can vouch I had significantly less than 30M haha.

Yea it's weird what people on HN will say with no actual first hand experience.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#777

Post by Otterly99 »

delis-thumbs-7e wrote: post #413
littlecranky67 wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a german living in spain, i feel your pain. While I do speak spanish around B1/B2 level, it took a lot of time and effort - probably the biggest effort in learning something after uni. People are often "you should speak the language if you life there" - yes, agreed. BUT: Hell, if you are a professional entrepreneur, you are already not working 40h week but way more. If in your day job you speak english anyway beca…

None of this people opining “just learn the language” have learned a second language while working as adults, let alone learned German. You can get to A2 level pretty easy (in most indoeuropean languages at least), but jumping to B1 can seriously be a year or more of studying. You have to be able to handle basic daily situations in the given language and understand what is said in a TV or Radio show. With practice yo…

I think it can be more useful to think in terms of hours of lessons rather than time spent learning. My partner is learning french right now at a private school and they have occasional classes (1h30 once a week), middle ground (2h twice a week) or intensive classes (4h five times a week). The program is always 70h, but you can either do it in a month, a semester or a year.

Having learned czech, I only had 1h30 a week and it took me 5 years to get to B1. I agree that the steps to A2 are much simpler because it focuses more on simple phrases and vocabulary, so you also learn it outside of the classes by reading descriptions, signs, menus. For B1 and up, you definitely need to practice by having deeper discussions with people or reading articles.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#778

Post by guenthert »

ikut3hva wrote: post #165

Hi everyone I don’t usually comment on topics like this because there are so many biases and different perspectives involved. In the end, I believe only the person who has actually gone through the experience can truly understand it; otherwise, it often becomes just another judgment. We are an ASEAN family earning more than €200k gross annually (sorry for mentioning the TC, but there is a reason for it—please keep re…

> suddenly the final decision is not what was agreed upon in the meeting.

Are you sure you're not reading too much into that? I've witnessed plenty of times (in the USA) that agreements of a meeting were later 'forgotten' (no doubt often indeed due to poor memory). To the point that it was best to insist on a written record of a meeting.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#779

Post by guenthert »

ikut3hva wrote: post #165

Hi everyone I don’t usually comment on topics like this because there are so many biases and different perspectives involved. In the end, I believe only the person who has actually gone through the experience can truly understand it; otherwise, it often becomes just another judgment. We are an ASEAN family earning more than €200k gross annually (sorry for mentioning the TC, but there is a reason for it—please keep re…

> We bought our first home without fully understanding the laws, the government system, or the tax rules.

That's bizarre. In Germany about half the population rents their primary dwelling; many life-long. There's really no rush to buy real estate here.

(not that anybody would fully understand the tax rules)

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#780

Post by mft_ »

customguy wrote: post #753
mstaoru wrote: post #745

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me play a bit of devil's advocate here. This is not what I really think but it's a point that has merit. Germany is in deep demographic and economic crisis, mostly due to talent shortage. If it has any ambition to maintain being #3 economy (by GDP), while simultaneously paying cushy pensions to a growing pool of retirees, it must either very quickly build talent (but it has a very limited pool due to demographic)…

That's like Germans moving to a poor country and being annoying to the waiter, then going "do you want my money or not?" When it comes to respecting someone -- which is what I'm talking about -- that just makes it worse. > Germany is in deep demographic and economic crisis, mostly due to talent shortage. If it has any ambition to maintain being #3 economy Countries don't have aims or ambitions, people in them do. If…

You seem to be completely missing (or avoiding?) the point.

It is widely recognised that Germany is one of the most at-risk countries in the world regarding its aging population, low birth-rate, and need for skilled workers for its economy.

If one performs a SWOT analysis of Germany from the perspective of a potential skilled immigrant, alongside the undoubted strengths, there are relative weaknesses - e.g. high taxes, awful bureaucracy (especially for outsiders and entrepreneurs), low levels of digitalisation, failing public infrastructure, and a language barrier vs. the otherwise-English-speaking professional world.

A rational response to this would be to address each weakness at all levels, from government to culture to individuals, because Germany is in competition with many other countries for the same skilled workers.

In short, put a process in place to make Germany the most skilled-immigrant-friendly country in world. And a piece of this process would be to be less intransigent around language - be much more accepting of people who want to settle in Germany and contribute positively to its future but don't want to spend large amounts of time learning a difficult new language which is irrelevant almost anywhere else.

> If someone acts entitled and assumes I have to accommodate their laziness forever, not just until they'll get settled in, I won't like them, and there won't be much warmth between us. If that dooms the nation, that's totally fine.

This is a very odd position: you're literally saying you'd rather have your country fail, fall apart, die, than get over your hurt feelings about people not wanting to speak the language fluently. (If Germany ceases to exist as a meaningful country in a few generations, few will care about speaking German then either.)

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