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Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

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Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#771

Post by ksd482 »

account42 wrote: post #746
ksd482 wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Change is the only constant. Nothing lasts forever. Good times will come and go and so would bad times. I think as humans we are used to small time frames which are proportional to our own lifetime. But the world: say climate, population, geology etc. moves at a much different cycle, if at all you can call it a cycle since none of the iterations are exactly the same. So the lesson is this: change is coming. Change wi…

Change may be inevitable but not every change is and we shouldn't stop insisting that things change for the better.

> we shouldn't stop insisting that things change for the better

I never said we shouldn't.

What I meant by "Change will always be coming. Embrace it.", is to accept it as a reality, be ready for it and prepare for it. That means, be ready to resist negative change and accept positive change.

Even after successfully resisting negative change, the end state may still be different than before. This is what we have to accept and be ready for, mentally.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#772

Post by marcusverus »

l23k4 wrote: post #586
arjie wrote: post #31

This is such a fascinating referendum. The population is at 9.1m, and at 9.5m it appears they'll stall asylum and family reunification, and at 10m they'll execute a Swexit - Switzerland isn't in the EU but it allows freedom of movement to EU nationals. Boy it is interesting to see what's going on in the world right now. There were so many things that I saw growing up as relatively solid but I just happened to grow up…

The EU will retaliate this time around and impose ruinous costs on Switzerland if it chooses to go through with this. Unlike the Brits, the Swiss have absolutely no leg to stand on here. If EU closes the borders, the Swiss will literally die of hunger.

"Don't leave us or we'll kill you" isn't the pro-EU argument you seem to think it is.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#773

Post by throwaway2037 »

diath wrote: post #354
kakacik wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should check Geneva then - they are building apartment buildings like crazy in past 5 years. Too much if you ask me - in very center, almost every small park or green spot is now 6 story concrete building. Only the biggest protected parks are untouched. City is visibly and permanently degrading into concrete field. Weirdly schizophrenic move - they try to keep pushing bike lanes everywhere, even where not safe to…

These jobs are unpopular because the pay is shit, not because people don't want to do them, the government could simply have grants/bonus program for people employed in these positions so that the taxpayer money directly funds the bettering of the society and environment around them. Besides, Japan is a good real world example that you do not need to lean on immigrant labor to stop your country from becoming "dirty";…

    > Besides, Japan is a good real world example that you do not need to lean on immigrant labor to stop your country from becoming "dirty"
This was true before about 10 years ago. In last 10 years, there has been a dramatic rise (I mean millions of "technical interns") in low-skill foreigners living and working in Japan. (To be clear: I harbor no resent towards these people.) They work in any industry that needs cheap low-skill workers: agriculture, hotels, restaurants, supermarkets, convenience stores, manufacturing, construction, civil/civic maintenance etc. That said, the friction has been pretty low. The difference between the original late 1990s wave of highly-skilled foreigners (mostly bankers and lawyers) and the most recent wave for low-skill foreigners: The most recent wave arrives to Japan with some Japanese language. (They study in their home country and need to pass a test to demonstrate basic Japanese language skills.) In my experience, their "median" Japanese is much better than most highly-skilled migrants, which helps to reduce the integration friction. Also, the low-skilled migrants have a maximum number of years they can work in Japan. They either need to skill-up and get a better visa (I guess about 5-10% can do it), or they need to return home after their "technical internship" is complete.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#774

Post by throwaway2037 »

mothballed wrote: post #748
deaux wrote: post #694

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> via a Gulf style guestworker program They get to keep their passports and can return any time, calling it Gulf-style is a bit much. There are abuses - so are there in Europe - but it's not like they sacrificed a thousand or so immigrant worker lives on the Tokyo Olympics in Qatar 2022 style.

I think they mean gulf style as seen by westerners. You can get a visa but you'll never be seen as a "local" nor granted citizenship. In places like Dubai multiple generations live without ever getting citizenship or a path to it and always with the notion you can be booted at any minute if you inconvenient the wrong person or run out of money. Though I don't think this is fully true of Japan -- it's one of the easie…

    > it's one of the easiest countries to naturalize
This is no longer true. With recent legislation, you need to live in Japan for 10 years before applying for citizenship. In the old days, it was only 5 years, which is pretty short for a highly developed nation. UK, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand are now much easier to obtain.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#775

Post by throwaway2037 »

aprilthird2021 wrote: post #475
diath wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These jobs are unpopular because the pay is shit, not because people don't want to do them, the government could simply have grants/bonus program for people employed in these positions so that the taxpayer money directly funds the bettering of the society and environment around them. Besides, Japan is a good real world example that you do not need to lean on immigrant labor to stop your country from becoming "dirty";…

> Japan is a good real world example that you do not need to lean on immigrant labor to stop your country from becoming "dirty"; it's one of the most ethically homogeneous countries and also one of the cleanest places you can visit. It's also one of the worst developed nation economies and has a massive old, shrinking population problem and is well associated with people having no kids, having no prospects for a bett…

To be clear, the economic performance of Japan is pretty similar to Italy. They have incredibly low population growth (or shrinking), but their GDP per capita continues to increase year-over-year. Surprisingly, quality of life is pretty good in Japan and Italy (the second will be a bit controversial here). As long as you have a middle class job, your life will be pretty good.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#776

Post by throwaway2037 »

aprilthird2021 wrote: post #635
ab5tract wrote: post #611

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would think that such a terrible, untenable, broken economy as I hear the Japanese economy described (oh no, it’s not growing fast! The horrors of checks notes equilibrium) would precipitate a very dirty landscape, vast swathes of nature torn down, civility breakdowns, mass homelessness, and a high murder rate, bridges collapsing out of nowhere, etc. I’ve just described some famously “excellent economy” countries…

Instead of those things, Japan has extremely high suicide rates, extremely low rates of coupling, extremely low rates of family formation, extremely high rates of loneliness, etc. It's a place with no economic growth prospects, where you have to work far longer than people in other developed nations, and where your chance of companionship and having your own family is the lowest it can possibly be in the world. But a…

    > extremely high suicide rates
This is no longer true. Look here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_r...

Sort by "All" and you will see Japan is #30, far below many other highly developed nations.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#777

Post by s1artibartfast »

mrtksn wrote: post #439
selfmodruntime wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How exactly are the Swiss in any position that would mean economic destruction?

They are in a position of having no seas and only EU on every side, which means things are getting more bureaucratic the more EU-Swiss relationship sours. Think border checks on the ground and flight restrictions in the air and the less than 10M rich people in the mountains can now trade only among themselves.

Why would the EU be so irrationally butt hurt about it? It seems easy enough to let the Swiss have their policy and both continue to benefit

Edit: EU can void all the other contracts, but why would it want to? Why do they care so much about how many immigrants Switzerland has?

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#778

Post by newbie4u »

What if these comments are massively astroturfed? As far as I can tell economic growth comes at the expense of everything. And if you can’t manage economic growth that benefits all instead of the few at the top, without endless population growth, then your political/economic system is cancerous. Tangentially, diversity is the strength of the exploitative psychopathic ruling class in the West. Why can’t a country or city or region live in balance with the rest of the planet? Most people want to have families or would clearly be happier if they had the option. Fix these problems, live in balance sustainably. This is clearly not the plan for the West. Weaponizing the higher ideals to increase economic exploitation has to be one of the most evil endeavors in the history of humanity.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#779

Post by tpm »

mike_hearn wrote: post #738
tpm wrote: post #718

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So no treaty was broken? Why did you write "Sure it did" when you know it wasn't? > They actually can pick and choose and both have done so successfully. They didn't. What happened was that some parts of some treaty were renegotiated or amended and agreed by both parties. Which is quite common in any such relationship.

You can use that definition of breaking a treaty if you like. But it's not a good idea. It sends the world a message that negotiating with European countries is dangerous because to avoid getting screwed you'd have to write down all known common sense and social conventions in the text of the treaty, and probably include the contents of a specific dictionary as well, and even then they might just do something crazy y…

Treaty law just doesn't work with 'common sense and social conventions' any more than compilers that won't compile your 'common sense and social conventions' text. You have to say exactly what you want, nothing more, nothing less. That's the work of lawyers and negotiators. As my lawyer friends say, well-written agreements make good friends (and vice versa).

But also note that you are the only one against Spain creating a path for a group of people that live there to gain legal status. No one mentioned that as a specific issue worth raising at international level. It's a non-issue.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#780

Post by throwaway2037 »

mike_hearn wrote: post #654
eqvinox wrote: post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it is the place it is due to the conditions it has grown in. Take away the EU and Switzerland loses a significant part of their economic power, which is needed to sustain being the place it is. Just like Brexit.

[flagged]

    > Brexit had no impact on the British economy.
From here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_effects_of_Brexit

    > The majority of economists believe that Brexit has harmed the UK's economy and reduced its real per capita income in the long term, and the referendum itself damaged the economy.
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