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The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

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Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#771

Post by jjk166 »

kube-system wrote: post #733
jjk166 wrote: post #715

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would not describe travelling alone as "very specific circumstances." It is extremely common. 70% of all car trips are solo, and the average number of occupants for all car trips is 1.5. That you can get more bang for your buck driving if you have enough passengers and luggage doesn't change the fact plenty of people don't.

You are entirely right, because 98%+ trips in a car are commutes or errands that average 6 miles in distance. But, that is not the topic of conversation above -- we were talking about trips 600+ miles in distance. These are almost exclusively not commutes. Averages don't necessarily describe your whole data set. Just like how the average person has around 1 testicle, this data is also multimodal :) ... People commute…

> You are entirely right, because 98%+ trips in a car are commutes or errands that average 6 miles in distance.

My figure was based on miles travelled, not trips. Further, your assumption that local travel would severely skew the data seems at best unsupported. Think about all those trips taking the kids to school/soccer practice/etc. Having a lot of people in the car is going to radically skew the average number of occupants up.

> Just like how the average person has around 1 testicle, this data is also multimodal

Then why are you essentially arguing that people with two testicles are a niche case?

The overwhelming majority of car trips that happen are going to be car trips that make sense to be car trips. That's not evidence of driving's economic sensibility, it is selection bias. The question is of all trips where a person needs to go a certain distance, how often is flying the cheaper option, and for long trips it is a lot.

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#772

Post by kube-system »

jjk166 wrote: post #771
kube-system wrote: post #733

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are entirely right, because 98%+ trips in a car are commutes or errands that average 6 miles in distance. But, that is not the topic of conversation above -- we were talking about trips 600+ miles in distance. These are almost exclusively not commutes. Averages don't necessarily describe your whole data set. Just like how the average person has around 1 testicle, this data is also multimodal :) ... People commute…

> You are entirely right, because 98%+ trips in a car are commutes or errands that average 6 miles in distance. My figure was based on miles travelled, not trips. Further, your assumption that local travel would severely skew the data seems at best unsupported. Think about all those trips taking the kids to school/soccer practice/etc. Having a lot of people in the car is going to radically skew the average number of…

Yeah, the cost of a flight alone is often cheaper than driving. The issue that I am getting at is that flights do not provide door-to-door service.

The transportation to/from the airport at either end can often be significant, as many parts of the US are not accessible via public transit. And rural destinations often have no final-destination options other than an expensive rental car. It is common to incur these costs.

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#773

Post by calmbonsai »

ehasbrouck wrote: post #704
calmbonsai wrote: post #697

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is only true for the "ticket purchase" not for the service itself. Outside of ERs in exigent circumstances, any commercial enterprise in the U.S. retains the right to "refuse service" though the nuances of enumerated reasons backed by jurisprudence differ by industry and locale. An airline can not refuse the "service purchase" unless the customer has been "banned" (technically a trespass statute), but they can r…

This is not true, in at least 2 respects: (1) a common carrier has a legal duty not just to sell a ticket but to provide transportation according to the tariff, and (2) this means an airline can't order a passenger not to board, or order them off the plane, unless they have violated some terms of the tariff. Some airlines have tried to create their own no-fly lists, but without opening up another area of discussion t…

Intoxication, ill health, threats to other passengers/crew, assault, and battery are just a few of the many reasons an airline is well within its rights to "refuse service" and this includes not allowing the passenger to ever board the plane.

You're correct that any sort of federal no-fly list is not lawful and, so far, there isn't enough court precedence to make a general policy and the ACLU has won some (limited) court victories. IMO, it is unconstitutional.

In practice, a "banned" passenger is trespassed off of airline property (the plane or gate) and that prior trespass is noted in their customer registry. If the "banned" passenger attempts to fly with the airline again, they are advised verbally or with text that they will not be able to board the plane, but they can still book a ticket. The passenger is then "trespassed" (again) at the gate and not allowed to board.

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#774

Post by chaboud »

noduerme wrote: post #624
K0balt wrote: post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Welcome to the club. I inadvertently traveled with not one, but two large box cutters in my carryon satchel for at least 20 flights before I discovered them while searching for some swag. I put them in there for a booth setup in Vegas years prior. Sent a completely calm, even sympathetic report to the powers that be, got put on the DNF list for my troubles. Still screened and detained 100 percent of the time, sometim…

So here's me at Burbank: Officer: Look at this knife. You're trying to take this on the plane? Me: Holy shit I didn't realize that was in my bag. Officer: Well do you want it back? Or do you want to fly today? Me: I don't want it. Officer: Don't mind if I keep it? Me: It's all yours.

I had a TSA agent take my knife and hide it, carrying it over the X-ray belt and putting it in his bag in the secure area.

It was a $13 knife, but he liked it.

No doubt that was a security violation, but it's all security theatre.

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#775

Post by [deleted] »

fransje26 wrote: post #571
xeornet wrote: post #546

About 75% of the time I don't get asked for ID at all when flying within Schengen Europe. I understand technically there isn't any border crossing, but they have absolutely no idea who is actually on the plane. Wild.

That's because you have the right to travel freely between Schengen countries. Asking for an ID or passport when embarking/disembarking would be similar to having an ID check at a border, and would therefore be a border control, i.e. no longer free travel. Of course Schengen countries have the right to temporarily re-enable border checks.

[deleted]

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#776

Post by xeornet »

fransje26 wrote: post #571
xeornet wrote: post #546

About 75% of the time I don't get asked for ID at all when flying within Schengen Europe. I understand technically there isn't any border crossing, but they have absolutely no idea who is actually on the plane. Wild.

That's because you have the right to travel freely between Schengen countries. Asking for an ID or passport when embarking/disembarking would be similar to having an ID check at a border, and would therefore be a border control, i.e. no longer free travel. Of course Schengen countries have the right to temporarily re-enable border checks.

I imagine it's the same as a police officer asking for your name on the street. They are allowed to ask, and you are required to provide it. There's no restriction of freedom happening. I think it's logically prudent to know who is on a flight.

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#777

Post by BowBun »

kbelder wrote: post #765
shrx wrote: post #614

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Airlines are not public transportation. Usually they're all privatized.

>TSA pre-check, Global Entry, and Clear _infuriate_ me And these additions are the opposite of privatization, they are federal requirements, de facto socialization.

Implementing 'fast lanes' is not a federal requirement and is the opposite of fair access to commonplace services.

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#778

Post by verdverm »

Vicinity9635 wrote: post #766
fugalfervor wrote: post #706

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The PATRIOT ACT which created the TSA was written by Joe Biden Citation needed. I believe you are mistaken.

[dead]

> Biden has repeatedly claimed that a bill he wrote in 1994 was essentially the same as the 2001 Patriot Act.

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#780

Post by arcticbull »

Thorrez wrote: post #764
arcticbull wrote: post #497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Ok then, give us $45 and you can go through." It's not pay $45 to go though, it's pay $45 for someone to take you around back and look you up based on secondary identification, and if they can't positively identify you based on that you still can't go through. This is a system that has been in place for a long, long time. You could always say you don't have ID and they'll look you up. The change is they're now cha…

> If you're talking about Pre, those people are individually background-checked before hand, and it costs $19/yr, The lowest amount I see on https://www.tsa.gov/precheck is $58.75.

Ah right I think I was benchmarking on global entry so that’s $11.75 per year.
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