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Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

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Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#771
post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They worked at a power plant, a place where dumb mistakes can cause explosions and kill people. The power plant wasn't racist and hired blacks into the labor department, but because it was just manual labor that department paid worse than the other more technical departments. When SCOTUS found against the power company they sent a clear message that merely being a technical, safety-critical job was an insufficient ba…

> When SCOTUS found against the power company they sent a clear message that merely being a technical, safety-critical job was an insufficient basis to establish a need to test people for intelligence. That's your interpretation. The court regarded the test used the power company as unrelated to the demands of the job. You're welcome to disagree with the court about that (as the company probably did), but don't misre…

I didn't claim otherwise. It should however be self evident that courts have no solid basis on which to make such a call. Judges don't know anything about running power plants, hiring employees, or really anything on that matter.

This is why human rights laws are always terrible in practice. They require the courts to make decisions well outside the bounds of their expertise.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#772
post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a very ideological take, especially this part: > It’s peanut butter and chocolate that has served democracy and its people well Most people are now saying in polls it didn't serve them well! You're disagreeing with the majority of people's lived experiences. And of those who say it was worth it, a lot will be people in denial. Nobody wants to rack up huge debts and then admit it was a mistake. If you were to s…

Friend, go to a community theatre production and you will find people engaged in something for which there is no economic incentive. Or learning a new language after retirement. Or playing church softball. There’s more to life than money, and there’s good in the world dollars can’t capture.

We're talking about academia, not hobbies. Academics expect to get paid in both money and social status.

As do churches and community theaters, by the way. They tend to expect donations. If nobody ever donated money they'd shut down.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#773
post #612
post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How has the existence of the computing industry depended on baristas with Women's Studies degrees? Because the history I know has it being 99% created by men with engineering skills doing paid work for large corporations.

Men and women. Women were heavily involved in the engineering work at the beginning of the industry. The industry only became male dominated in the late 20th century: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_disparity_in_computing

They weren't heavily involved and to claim otherwise is historical revisionism.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#774
post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because they are "elite" in their credentials, not actually elite in their competences/qualities. By definition you cannot have an elite that is comprised of a large part of the population. The problem is that education institutions have an incentive to bring in more and more people for the money and the power it affords them but that's completely contradictory to the goal of production elite individuals. A tr…

Information is not culture. Universities teach culture - moral attitudes. They don't just transfer information. This applies to science and engineering as much as it applies to the arts, but you need a good education to understand what "morality" means in this context. The collapse of the West started when the old Enlightenment morality - education of all kinds as a collective good - was replaced by the MBA culture o…

Nonsense. Universities are just part of culture, it's tiny and most people do not participate and only receive the "products" coming out of universities. Culture is a broad concept and very region specific, it is not tied to academia. Universities have influence on culture but that's pretty much it.

Universities are supposed to teach valuable skills and knowledge. Outside of STEM fields they are increasingly failing at that task. Relativism is in full force and we are in the "post-truth" world largely because university produced some of the most garbage theories you could think of.

And universities have no business inserting themselves into moral arguments, otherwise it is basically a state sanctioned religion. But this is basically the problem, universities have become the ideological arm the power in place, exactly like it was when the Catholics dominated Europe and gave legitimacy to kings. Unsurprisingly there have been complaints of "neo-feudalism" which is just a repeat of the middle-age, that happened after the rise of Christianity, when universities were de facto Catholic institutions.

> but you need a good education to understand what "morality" means in this context.

Passive-agressive much ? Instead of attempting cheap low blows, maybe you can go through the trouble of explaining.

Morals can guide you for science and engineering choices but the whole point of those fields is that they shouldn't be limited by morals. I think you are confusing ethics and morals but it also seems like you are just arguing for some form of censorship.

>The collapse of the West started when the old Enlightenment morality - education of all kinds as a collective good - was replaced by the MBA culture of greed and vapid narcissism.

Vapid narcissism is an inherent human behavior and doesn't have much to do with universities but is largely linked to consumerism. I guess you could say that people go to university for credentialism in order to get a good pay to finally express their vapid narcissism. But the universities have nothing to do with the process and just a middle point in route to the goal. Which is basically the argument: credentialism is nonsense and cost a lot of money for no good results. If universities would be successful, one could easily argue that vapid narcissism should be going down actually but instead you get just another marker of uselessness. As for the MBAs, they can't be that big of an influence in the universities, it's mostly about bachelors and masters; why even bring this up ?

> DEI was a weak and ineffectual response to that. The dysfunction goes far deeper, and universities are now a vector of it rather than a bulwark against it.

DEI take its roots in universities, via feminism, gender studies and all kind of social sciences bullshit. Those fields were created precisely to fill the ranks because it was statistically impossible to have enough people clearing the bar for the hard studies even if they had wished to expand capacity. It was just a way to make people pay for a piece of paper that is supposed to give them legitimacy even though what happened is nothing short of endoctrinement.

Of course the universities are a vector of it, they created the dysfunction out of ideology and greed. It is just some a proto-religion that is trying to establish its authority. Nothing can tell you that better than the divide between the university "educated" women, voting left and the common man being either right-wing or closer to the center. Historically women are often the first followers of new religions (just go check who is doing new age bullshit) and they constituted the majority of early followers of Christianity.

So DEI was hardly a response, it was the result of a new religion that has no name trying to cement itself in the establishment. But it can only work if the men play along and so far the sentiment has been quite negative to say the least.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#775

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it had something to do with 9/11 being an act of war from Afghanistan against the US. Nations are responsible for the actions of groups inside their borders against other nations.

It was not an act of war since Afghanistan didn't have an official government - in practice the Taliban ran things - but the attacks were carried out by the Al Qaeda which was spread over the Middle East. The Taliban might have been sympathetic to it but they were not actively supporting them or had any official collaboration with them.

Acts of war are between nations, not between governments.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#776
post #542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree on the Russia Ukraine motivations. Ukraine is not part of NATO and was not going to become part of NATO. There were already two NATO countries bordering Russia near Moscow and St P if NATO had wanted to invade which they had no thoughts of doing. Russia lies constantly on this stuff. I think they basically regarded Ukraine their land as part of the Russian empire they were restoring.

It's not about immediate intentions, but about strategic options. Imagine Russia decided to form a military alliance with Mexico with the expected intention of deploying weapons on the Mexican border. If Mexico agreed to this, it would take approximately 0 seconds before the US invaded them under some whimsical pretext (drug gangs probably) and overthrew their government to prevent this. In fact this is, more or less…

> Imagine Russia decided to form a military alliance with Mexico ... it would take approximately 0 seconds before the US invaded them

Not this shit again. It's always the identical boring talking points from the Moscow trolls.

e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46008641

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#777

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean yea, they absolutely are economically speaking - especially when looking at where new grad college educated jobs are located [0]. Heck, most states have fallen into a technical recession [1]. Florida is weird simply because of how much tourism and retirement adjacent industries skew it's economy (eg. Elderly care, primary care, etc) - in fact, healthcare services (as in elderly care, hospice care, and homecare…

Living in Louisiana, salaries here are in the same bucket as FL.

Oof that is a shame given how severely CoL has risen across much of the South. Salary expectations on the employers side is just too low, but then again, I guess most industries are low margins ones sadly.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#778

Total cost of ownership is 4 years x $15k-$25k (for a cheap public school) + missed income from working that same four years ($35k x 4 years). This is equal to $220k +/- $20k of lost money. Now compare this to income differential. Starting grad income is $80k(?). At 4% raise per year compared to 3.5% raise per year for a non-college employee. Over 43 years. My math comes out to the college grad is still making more m…

The 43 years of career is debatable. I got a CS degree in 1997 and worked for 18 years (non consecutively), but have been out of work now for several years. It's quite possible those 18 are the entirety of the earnings I will derive from my CS degree. And people today have AI pressures I didn't have. Makes the math quite a bit different.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#779
post #576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being segregated into different universities is exactly the thing you need not to happen, and your attitude is the exemplification of the problem. Who is going to feel welcome if their concerns are blindly maligned as prejudiced and in bad faith by default?

It is not like liberals would created religious colleges. Religious colleges were created by evangelicals and they have rules that explicitly punish things like "woman having male visitor" or "being gay" or "not being religious". If what you want is ideological purity of evangelical Christianity, then yes, you have to create own institution. Which is exactly what conservatives did. Because it is extremely valid for o…

> Religious colleges were created by evangelicals and they have rules that explicitly punish things like "woman having male visitor" or "being gay" or "not being religious".

Which is dumb, but we're talking about the major schools everybody knows that used to have ideologically diverse faculty and don't anymore, not the ones of lesser influence founded by Baptists to begin with.

The point of freedom is that other people are allowed to be fools without requiring you to be, not that everybody be required to choose which major brand of zealot they have to be.

> Issue was that other universities did not punished non conservative thought and behavior enough.

The issue is this:

https://www.thefire.org/research-learn/scholars-under-fire-2...

It's people saying "freedom of speech is not freedom from consequences" completely oblivious to the fact that freedom of speech literally is the thing where we don't punish people for speech. And then punishing people for expressing controversial/unpopular/heretical ideas.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#780

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can vouch for studying abroad. But can you get loans and scholarships for it as easily as studying at home? Even if the university is free you must pay for food and housing.

> Even if the university is free you must pay for food and housing. A one-person apartment in the local halls of residence costs under €500/month here in DE. A room in a shared flat costs a lot less.

That can still be too much. Someone studying abroad usually isn’t allowed to work, so they’re making zero income. If they come from a poor family, they have almost if not zero reserves. So everything must be either provided by the college or covered by grants/loans.

Except some universities may allow foreign students to take on-campus jobs, which would probably pay enough. Or for a PhD, usually the university pays you.

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