Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

hugotunius.se

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

771–780 of 1001 posts

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#771

Post by adiabatichottub »

rhines wrote: post #743
mothballed wrote: post #710

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't own a phone, but the most shocking revelation came when my child's school required us to use an app to specify how our children will be picked up or ride the bus. So far I've been able to avoid using apps for pretty much anything, but when the school says "use an app or you won't get your kids" and then also say they will call CPS and have your kids seized if you don't get them in time, that puts you in a rea…

We've reached the point where people without devices or common online services are so rare that society no longer accommodates them. It's similar to how we need legislation to ensure that disabled people have accessible infrastructure, except I doubt there will ever be legislation mandating offline/off-app accessibility.

File it under faulty assumptions organizations make about their clients or customers. If you live in a rural area in the United States it is still quite possible to have:

  * No cellular service
  * No landline service
  * No postal delivery to your property, and a physical address that isn't in any database
  * No public utilities
It can be very frustrating to deal with services that assume you have the ability to receive SMS messages, and almost anything requiring identity these days demands a phone number.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#772

Post by Zambyte »

tqwhite wrote: post #697

You can. You can jailbreak your iPhone. I assume you can do so with Android. Problem solved. Oh, you want to jailbreak it and use it as an authenticator? No. That doesn't seem like a reasonable requirement.

"you can run anything you want as long as it's not what I don't want you to run" seems like an odd argument to make.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#773

Post by 0xfaded »

guerrilla wrote: post #662
kristov wrote: post #641

I think the conversation needs to change from "can't run software of our choice" to "can't participate in society without an apple or google account". I have been living with a de-googled android phone for a number of years, and it is getting harder and harder, while at the same time operating without certain "apps" is becoming more difficult. For example, by bank (abn amro) still allows online banking on desktop via…

> I think the conversation needs to change from "can't run software of our choice" to "can't participate in society without an apple or google account". This won't work out for you. It just turns into technically being able to, but it being practically impossible. In Sweden (i.e. basically your future), we're already there.

What's it like in Sweden? When I lived in Denmark the government had its own e-boks system for mail. I only ever accessed it via web, but I'm sure there's an app as well. Back then everything was authenticated via NemID which defaulted to the option of using codes printed on physical cards sent in the mail. I know they've moved to MitID now. Does anyone know if MitID can be installed on a de-googled device? Apparently there are a couple other options https://www.mitid.dk/en-gb/get-started-with-mitid/how-to-use...

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#774

Post by pdonis »

kristov wrote: post #641

I think the conversation needs to change from "can't run software of our choice" to "can't participate in society without an apple or google account". I have been living with a de-googled android phone for a number of years, and it is getting harder and harder, while at the same time operating without certain "apps" is becoming more difficult. For example, by bank (abn amro) still allows online banking on desktop via…

To me the point where the law needs to intervene is the bank or the school. You need a bank to function--that means the bank should be prohibited by law from tying you to an app from a particular company, whether it's Google or Apple or anyone else. You should be able to access their functions using any client that supports the appropriate open standards (such as web browsers).

Similarly, if the school is going to have control over your kids, the school should be prohibited by law from requiring you to use an app that's tied to a particular company. They should be required to provide you functional access using any client that supports the appropriate open standards.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#775

Post by throwaway31131 »

kristov wrote: post #641

I think the conversation needs to change from "can't run software of our choice" to "can't participate in society without an apple or google account". I have been living with a de-googled android phone for a number of years, and it is getting harder and harder, while at the same time operating without certain "apps" is becoming more difficult. For example, by bank (abn amro) still allows online banking on desktop via…

The main issue is we’re not there today and it’s not obvious what that world looks like.

We all had junk drawers of useless charging cables, everyone agreed it was stupid, hence a universal charging connector standard along with the promise that the charger junk drawers will be freed.

Even if we mandate the “POSIX of smart phones”, for lack of a better term, what problem today, for everyday users, does it solve? It might even make interactions with various government technology worse as that API will likely only be begrudgingly supported, which won’t win any hearts or minds.

Basically until you have a one line slogan that most people can relate to which, and is a problem they have today, movement will be very slow.

Also, in the short term, if these various site are AI coded, and thus follow existing software patterns, expect this to get worse.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#776

Post by fauigerzigerk »

abustamam wrote: post #717
shawabawa3 wrote: post #650

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you decide you don't want a relationship with either of those companies you will be extremely disadvantaged. Even more worrying is the inverse of this - if Google and/or Apple decide for whatever reason they don't want a relationship with you (aka they ban you for no reason) - you are completely screwed

Even if they ban you for a reason, you're screwed. Granted, the ban may have been warranted, but you're essentially put into a societal prison with no due process or recourse.

Very true. They are effectively a new type of non-territorial state with absolutely no separation of powers or rule of law or principle of proportionality.

What makes this difficult though is that they are under constant attack from highly organised and automated criminal operations that create and exploit accounts en masse.

Any solution to the tyrannical state of affairs we are subjected to (even more so as developers) needs to balance better protections for real people (including as you say for people who have committed some transgressions) with fighting organised crime.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#777

Post by daft_pink »

OsrsNeedsf2P wrote: post #197
daft_pink wrote: post #52

There’s something weird about it. My phone needs to be hyper secure, and a lot of companies went to monetize that and introduce insecurities with their software. That’s why I love my iPhone, but I’m not super happy about what happens with my Mac. There’s something in the reality that it’s the app developers not the user that are being restricted by Apple. Apple keeps the app developers from doing things I don’t like…

What does this have to do with the article?

The article is a discussion about google‘s android app processes becoming more strict and the authors opinion that that’s terrible.

My comment is an argument against sideloading for phone devices because there’s a lot of nefarious behavior in these types of apps by comparing apples process because Apple is the other operator in this duopoly of phone operating systems. Sorry that was not clear.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#778

Post by account42 »

callc wrote: post #715
jackothy wrote: post #688

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clearly the logical threshold is when a single private corporation becomes the gatekeeper to your life. The internet itself is decentralized so that's fine. Mobile phones as a concept is also fine.

Almost. Having access to the internet requires a device, or public computer if available. A just society would at least maintain ability to interact with all government services through in-person and through post office. Universal access.

At least in some countries you can use a public computer at a library or other government-provided institution. I agree that it ideally shouldn't be required though.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#779

Post by safety1st »

lwhi wrote: post #566
safety1st wrote: post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only competition can provide a solution. We have lost sight of this principle even though all Western democracies are built on the idea of separation of powers, and making it hard for any one faction of elites to gain full control and ruin things for everyone else. Make them fight with each other, let them get a piece of the pie, but never all of it. That's why we have multiple branches of government, multiple partie…

In fact true competition is only possible via open standards, protocols and technology stacks. We need agreement to ensure the large corporations adhere to these.

I'm not opposed to open standards, but what makes you think that a corporation which simultaneously violates anti-trust law in three markets and evades meaningful enforcement can be forced to comply with standards?

The problem is not primarily technological, it is a problem of rule of law. Google is a serial violator, found guilty multiple times. So it is a failure of enforcement of law (unless government actions in the near term end up being very dramatic).

If someone points a gun to your head, I guess you could solve that by inventing a personal forcefield. But until you do, we need law enforcement as a deterrent against murder. Otherwise murderers will just keep on doing it.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#780

Post by adiabatichottub »

pdonis wrote: post #774
kristov wrote: post #641

I think the conversation needs to change from "can't run software of our choice" to "can't participate in society without an apple or google account". I have been living with a de-googled android phone for a number of years, and it is getting harder and harder, while at the same time operating without certain "apps" is becoming more difficult. For example, by bank (abn amro) still allows online banking on desktop via…

To me the point where the law needs to intervene is the bank or the school. You need a bank to function--that means the bank should be prohibited by law from tying you to an app from a particular company, whether it's Google or Apple or anyone else. You should be able to access their functions using any client that supports the appropriate open standards (such as web browsers). Similarly, if the school is going to ha…

You mean like if there were a standard (JSON, XML, whatever) format of document that you could cryptographically sign which would order a transaction to take place? Kind of like a digital teller's slip?
Post reply on HN