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A $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no stereo, no screen

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Re: A $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no stereo, no screen

#771

Post by Animats »

The US is falling way behind in electric vehicles. If BYD could sell in the US, the US auto industry would be crushed.[1]

What went wrong is that 1) Tesla never made a low-end vehicle, despite announcements, and 2) all the other US manufacturers treated electric as a premium product, resulting in the overpowered electric Hummer 2 and F-150 pickups with high price tags. The only US electric vehicle with comparable prices in electric and gasoline versions is the Ford Transit.

BYD says that their strategy for now is to dominate in every country that does not have its own auto industry. Worry about the left-behind countries later.

BYD did it by 1) getting lithium-iron batteries to be cheaper, safer, and faster-charging, although heavier than lithium-ion, 2) integrating rear wheels, differential, axle, and motor into an "e-axle" unit that's the entire mechanical part of the power train, and 3) building really big auto plants in China.

Next step is to get solid state batteries into volume production, and build a new factory bigger than San Francisco.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_BYD_Auto_vehicles

Re: A $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no stereo, no screen

#772

Post by proggy »

ganoushoreilly wrote: post #667
darth_avocado wrote: post #658

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what you’re describing is exactly the reason Kei trucks aren’t a thing despite most farmers actually liking them for their utility. You can’t import them unless they are old because we want to protect the automotive industry. But we can’t build them new either because they don’t meet the safety standards (FMVSS) and are penalized more for being fuel efficient because the standards are stricter for smaller vehicle…

To be fair, kei trucks are horrible in crashes too. That’s a big part of states starting to ban them.

They’re horrible in crashes in the North American region. That’s because the average vehicle size in North America is much, much bigger than the vehicles in the Kei trucks’ region of origin. And streets in North America are, on average, much, much wider and permit higher speed traffic than those in Japan. The cars themselves aren’t inherently unsafe; if you keep them mostly on private property and only take them out on low-speed public roads with light duty vehicles, they’re still operating in an appropriate context. Also pretty appropriate in historic city centers where the roads aren’t too fast and the trucks and full size SUVs aren’t too numerous. But yeah, take one out on the interstate boxed between two semi trucks, an F-350, and a Suburban and you’re going to be in real danger.

Re: A $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no stereo, no screen

#774

Post by morepedantic »

brianwawok wrote: post #476
bgnn wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why can't we just tax the gas at the pump? this is, at least, what I'm used to in Europe.

We do. But it’s a super regressive tax. Lots of very poor people depend on a bad MPG car to get to work and live.

If you subsidize polluting life-styles, you'll get pollution.

You think the rich suffer from pollution and car dependency? It's not at all clear that taxing gas will lead to worse outcomes for the poor. It's entirely clear that subsidizing pollution from the poor will lead to worse outcomes for the planet.

Re: A $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no stereo, no screen

#775

Post by darth_avocado »

ganoushoreilly wrote: post #667
darth_avocado wrote: post #658

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what you’re describing is exactly the reason Kei trucks aren’t a thing despite most farmers actually liking them for their utility. You can’t import them unless they are old because we want to protect the automotive industry. But we can’t build them new either because they don’t meet the safety standards (FMVSS) and are penalized more for being fuel efficient because the standards are stricter for smaller vehicle…

To be fair, kei trucks are horrible in crashes too. That’s a big part of states starting to ban them.

Motorbikes are much worse in crashes than kei trucks, we are more than happy to make, sell and operate them. I don’t actually buy the “unsafe” reasoning. It’s also perfectly street legal to buy and drive cars and trucks from the 60s with abysmal safety ratings.

Re: A $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no stereo, no screen

#776

Post by chihuahua »

kranke155 wrote: post #717
mft_ wrote: post #665

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Manufacturers must hit a level of CO2 emissions on average across their whole fleet. As such, Suzuki is choosing to discontinue the Jimny because of the tougher fleet average targets starting in 2025. Overall you’re right that it’s a bit of a fix; Mercedes ‘pools’ its emissions with other manufacturers/brands. It currently pools with Smart, but may also pool with Volvo/Polestar? [0] It’s such an obvious approach to ‘…

They likely saw it coming… and deliberately did it this way. All local industry distorts their relevant politics. There’s lobbyists in the EU too. The EU economy has a lot of car manufacturing, so cars are probably a big deal in Brussels.

Especially in Germany, which has several major manufacturers (Daimler-Benz, VW, BMW) that are important to the economy. Additionally, VW is part owned by the government of one of the states, which is why they are frequently favored by the government. Despite various scandals at VW, there are rarely any serious consequences for the company, because the government always finds a way to make trouble go away.

And Germany is fairly influential in the EU so they probably extend the protection of these companies to the EU level.

Re: A $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no stereo, no screen

#777

Post by morepedantic »

floxy wrote: post #460
mtillman wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fine print: The truck in the link is only $20K after government subsidies/rebates. So if the government gives my tax dollars to buyers of this truck, then it will cost $20K.

Even finer print: the $7,500 federal incentive is a tax rebate. If you don't have a $7,500 tax liability, you won't get the full amount. (this also applies if you transfer the credit to the dealer at point of sale). I mean, money is fungible and all, but your particular tax dollars aren't going to people who buy EVs, they are just paying less in taxes.

>money is fungible

And then you contradicted yourself 2 phrases over.

Re: A $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no stereo, no screen

#778

Post by dbtc »

BLKNSLVR wrote: post #744
cco wrote: post #731

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll do you one better, car headlights should never be off while the motor is running. Just like motorcycles since the 70s (maybe 80s?). No switch at all, ignition on, headlights on, period.

Niche counter example: Parents who sit in their idling cars for (fucking) ages while their cars are facing the tennis courts thus blinding the player on the other side of the court for however long it takes them to either turn their car off, drive off, or someone to tell them turn their fucking headlights off.

Simple solution: when the wheels start rolling, the lights come on.

I'd still prefer to override both on/off though.

Re: A $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no stereo, no screen

#779

Post by motorest »

throw10920 wrote: post #758
mft_ wrote: post #665

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Manufacturers must hit a level of CO2 emissions on average across their whole fleet. As such, Suzuki is choosing to discontinue the Jimny because of the tougher fleet average targets starting in 2025. Overall you’re right that it’s a bit of a fix; Mercedes ‘pools’ its emissions with other manufacturers/brands. It currently pools with Smart, but may also pool with Volvo/Polestar? [0] It’s such an obvious approach to ‘…

This is why its so important to be super careful with how you write regulation - because even if the intent was good, it's so hard to both anticipate unintended second- and third-order effects, and it's so difficult to update after you've pushed to production. Just like code, regulation isn't intrinsically valuable - it's a means to an end, and piling lots of poorly-written stuff on top of each other has disasterous…

> This is why its so important to be super careful with how you write regulation - because even if the intent was good, it's so hard to both anticipate unintended second- and third-order effects, and it's so difficult to update after you've pushed to production.

It seems that the goal is to pressure automakers to improve the efficiency across their entire line instead of simply banning low-efficiency models altogether.

If an automaker discontinues a low-efficient model in order to have access to a market, isn't this an example of regulation working well?

Re: A $20k American-made electric pickup with no paint, no stereo, no screen

#780

Post by betelgeuse6 »

danans wrote: post #344
aidenn0 wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's overly reductive. 1. Poorer people tend to drive older vehicles, so if you solely encourage higher fuel economies by taxing carbon emissions, then the tax is (at least short-term) regressive. 2. You can work around #1 by applying incentives for manufacturers to make more efficient cars should lead any carbon tax 3. If you just reward companies based on fleet-average fuel economy without regard to vehicle size,…

> 1. Poorer people tend to drive older vehicles, so if you solely encourage higher fuel economies by taxing carbon emissions, then the tax is (at least short-term) regressive. You give it back to poor as a income-phased out refundable tax credit. Crucially, base it not on how much they drive or consume, but on their income. Name it something like the "Worker's Energy Credit". In the worst case, it cancels out the car…

Why don't the poor just buy smaller cars? Less weight - less pollution. Nobody needs a to drive a pickup, unless they run a farm or construction firm. A car weighing less than a ton would be perfectly enough for 99.9 % of drivers.
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