Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#771

Post by 15155 » Sun, Oct 13, 2024, 10:15 PM UTC

thehappypm wrote: post #708

geysersam wrote: post #628

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't just compare the entire multi purpose road network of the US to a single rail company. That's just not a serious comparison. Besides, you didn't include the cost of the vehicles or the cost of fuel for the cars. I presume the number for Amtrak include all operating costs. The truth is that different modes of transport have different strengths and weaknesses. In densely urbanized areas trains and trams are t…

There are definitely places where rail is awesome, a great example is New York to DC. Better than driving or flying by a mile. But on a purely cost basis, rail is very expensive. It just more expensive for the government to build an operate rail than it is for them to build and operate roads. You’re right that part of it is because some of the cost is shouldered by the car owner. But, even in Europe, car ownership is…

> rail station taking you from anywhere you want to go to anywhere else you wanna go unless you’re in an urban hub.

The specific people pushing this form of development also want you to live in ultra-high-density housing in an urban center - that's the whole idea and eventuality of this type of development.

You WILL raise your family in an apartment, they WILL ride a bicycle everywhere they aren't using mass transit. You will own nothing and like it.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#772

Post by 15155 » Sun, Oct 13, 2024, 10:16 PM UTC

xyzzy123 wrote: post #347

Aeolun wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do bigger houses make parenting easier, do bigger backyards? I’m inclined towards a large communual yard (a park, if you will) being many times more efficient at keeping them busy, especially if you have a single child. Lugging your children around on public transit builds character that chauffeuring them around in a car does not. They’ll be exposed to a variety of people and situations they’d otherwise never experie…

The other great thing about public transport is you don't have to "lug" / "chauffer" them at all after about 8 or so (what age makes sense depends on area and the kid of course). They can exercise some independence.

Do Lyft/Uber not grant the same independence?

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#773

Post by bluGill » Sun, Oct 13, 2024, 10:21 PM UTC

fransje26 wrote: post #573

jajko wrote: post #491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

German chancellor plans to put road repairs into 2% mandatory defense budget to meet NATO requirements, so not that much of a load to overall german budget. Not trying to detract discussion, just finding it hilarious that when facing a potentially existential threat from russians who repeatedly claim they will wipe them out, they will do just about anything rather than making their military into something a bit bette…

Actually, it makes quite a bit of sense to plan ahead to make sure that your infrastructure can efficiently transport the weapon systems you already have, or you are planning to have. What's the use of tanks if you can't get them to the battlefield? [1] Although some infrastructure was already built taking logistics into account [2], concrete structures have a life expectancy of about 50 years, and many bridges are p…

It is also important to make sure your military equipment can travel across rough ground after the retreating enemy has destroyed all roads, rails, and bridges. Of course in that situation you don't care much about saving the ground you are covering while chasing the enemy, but lack of roads is not fatal (there is good reason the military likes it - it makes their logistic much easier on safe ground)

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#774

Post by bluGill » Sun, Oct 13, 2024, 10:24 PM UTC

jojobas wrote: post #584

panda-giddiness wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany spends some 70 billion euros maintaining the road system, only about a third of which is offset by taxes on drivers [1]. If we accept that investments in roads reduce carbon emissions by 0 million tonnes per year, then that works out to NaN € per tonne -- much worse than other carbon abatement methods! Naturally there might be other positive externalities to owning a car, but I don't own a car and therefore w…

Even if you don't drive a car yourself you depend a lot on things delivered by road. Most of the road wear is done by trucks bringing you food, construction materials and whatever else. You can't exactly replenish your local grocery store by rail or cargo bike.

Most of the need for roads though is cars. It is rare to see a multi-lane road where trucks are restricted to only 1 lane and cars allowed the rest - if though trucks wouldn't fill that single lane and in turn the other lanes could be built much cheaper. (in part because the road needed for a car isn't that much cheaper than the road needed for a truck - labor is about the same, and weather is often a large factor)

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#775

Post by 15155 » Sun, Oct 13, 2024, 10:24 PM UTC

dreadlordbone wrote: post #770

raverbashing wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's easier parenting: walk from your house/apartment to a close by square, and play with your kids there

Honestly, I don't want that lifestyle. I live in the burbs with a big house and yard. We travel plenty and go to places that are dense/walkable but I love coming back home to my carbrained neighborhood with an HOA.

That's really too bad: your lifestyle does not support maximal economic output of the land you are using and tax dollars you're paying.

HOA? Hah!- those shouldn't be allowed, neither should home ownership generally. You really need to live and raise your family in an apartment.. taxes should be raised enough that we can phase out private home ownership.

Your children will attend a public school and understand and implement equity from an early age. They will learn to use and love mass transit, only the approved destinations are necessary.

The Party may decide that the 50% of your income you are generously allowed to spend on approved items is too much. Social programs aren't free, you know, you need to pay "your share."

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#776

Post by bluGill » Sun, Oct 13, 2024, 10:29 PM UTC

sedansesame wrote: post #370

kurthr wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you would be good with spending more money and even increasing total carbon footprint, if it just felt good? Seriously, if you're not going to measure anything or use logic, I'm not sure how you can even call them "defined" or "values". It sounds like, "I saw it on TV/internet/billboard so it must be true".

Yes, because that is exactly how American cities are currently built today -- expensive carbon-intensive roads paved out to sprawling suburbs, the independent financial upkeep of which is not sustainable long-term. [0] The costs for car-based infrastructure are also sky high: $1+ million per mile of new road, excluding constant maintenance in repavings, potholes, and drainage systems. [1] From an economic lens, trans…

Strong towns is a terrible source of numbers and has been debunked many times. Streetcar suburbs have been sustaining themselves for 140 years - rebuilding their infrastructure. Infrastructure is a tiny % of any government budget (https://pedestrianobservations.com/2024/10/07/taxes-are-not-...) and so infrastructure spending could go up a lot.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#777

Post by bluGill » Sun, Oct 13, 2024, 10:34 PM UTC

carlosjobim wrote: post #686

realusername wrote: post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "how much are we willing to pay for this good thing" We don't even do that for cars. We shifted most of the transport cost to the individuals without any calculation. Nowadays, cars are the most costly item in a household besides the house itself, is that okay? I'm not so sure.

A car is an incredibly complex and incredibly useful machine. In a non-feudal banker run economy, a car would cost 5 times as much as a house. Or rather the house would be 5 times cheaper than the car.

The cost of something is not related to what it is worth to life. In any case the real measure is what someone is willing to pay. I'm driving a 25 year old car because I choose to buy a more expensive house, and put my kids in various activities - as a result I don't have enough money left over to pay for a new car. I do have enough money to pay for a used car when the current one breaks and is unfixable, but I have choosen to spend elsewhere - those used cars provide exactly as much value to me as a new car and save me money. (I save even more money by riding my bike where possible so I rarely drive)

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#778

Post by bluGill » Sun, Oct 13, 2024, 10:38 PM UTC

nsokolsky wrote: post #323

CuriousCosmic wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. This is something Texas is having to come to terms with right now. Cars and roads only scale so much before you physically can't move more people fast enough even with more roads and more lanes. Rail scales way better. So Texas is pushing a high speed rail line that will allow people to commute 30-90min into a city from locations that currently are 1.5-3 hours away. And at that allow those people to commute to ci…

Is Texas "coming to terms" with it, though? Cars don't scale infinitely but are also way more flexible than rail lines could ever be. If your goal is to have everyone work in downtown Dallas then yes, they suck. But you can just build offices and manufacturing facilities all around the state instead, avoiding the creation of single bottlenecks.

> Cars don't scale infinitely but are also way more flexible than rail lines could ever be

I'm not convinced this is true. Because a train enables more density, it enables more places you can reach once on it. A car enables more geographical area, but there is a lot less things to do in that area, and those things to do are what matters. If you want to go camping miles from anyone else than a car will get you there, but if you want to do a city activity (restaurant, movies, live music, show, work) a train can get you to a much greater variety of those things.

Note that with both the real question is the network. A car where there are not roads won't get you anywhere. A car where there is one road doesn't get you far. Same for a train - I live in a city without a train and so obviously I can't get anywhere on it. I've been in cities with trains and I was able to get places on it - enough that I didn't need to have a car.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#779

Post by LeanderK » Sun, Oct 13, 2024, 10:45 PM UTC

bowsamic wrote: post #439

ben_w wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a UK citizen living in Berlin, I assure you that for all the cancellations and repair works, there's many places which look up to the German system. (I've also been to the USA, and (IMO) Amtrak makes the UK look good).

I visited the UK, which is my home, and the UK train system was amazing. Got multiple tight connections with zero delays. Far better than I’ve experienced living in Germany

Interesting, i am in the opposite situation. Using the deutsche bahn for long distances is often horrible so I never thought I would miss it but omg I really didn't have a good experience with Uk trains. The ticketing is complicated and the trains were often so unbelievably dirty and run down. Never had this experience in an ICE. Okay there are sometimes issues like the toilet boing out of order or the restaurant closed but the train is usually clean and fairly nice. And while the delay wasn't massive I still had delays. It's also sooo slow, there's no high-speed train. Last time I took the train from southampton to edinburgh and it really took forever and I was soo slow.

Even Edinburgh-London is slow! It's a similar distance than munich-berlin, a train I often take. In germany these are sleek, clean trains that take just over 3 hours, with only one or two stops with the sprinter. The train in the UK takes around 5 hours, significantly longer. I can do 3 hours on a friday evening work and arrive not too late to then meet friends for drinks, you can't do that with 5 hours.

And not only ICE, it's the same experience with regional trains. I used to live in Baden-Württemberg and took a lot of regional trains. I didn't think I would miss it with the delays from the new central station that they've been building for what feels like forever but now I do.

There are many things that the UK does better than Germany but trains they manage to do even worse (or maybe its not that bad?)

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#780

Post by bluGill » Sun, Oct 13, 2024, 10:47 PM UTC

jjav wrote: post #704

CuriousCosmic wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. This is something Texas is having to come to terms with right now. Cars and roads only scale so much before you physically can't move more people fast enough even with more roads and more lanes. Rail scales way better. So Texas is pushing a high speed rail line that will allow people to commute 30-90min into a city from locations that currently are 1.5-3 hours away. And at that allow those people to commute to ci…

> Cars and roads only scale so much before you physically can't move more people fast enough even with more roads and more lanes. Rail scales way better. Before scaling people moving up so much, I'd question why encourage so much movement. Instead, let's encourage local areas which are walkable/cycleable that contain 95% of what people need. By eliminating the need for 95% of high-speed people moving (whether by car,…

95% is way too high a target! I sometimes want to get supplies at the special Asian food store - there won't be one in my 95% neighborhood - nearly everybody has enough of their own special hobby/interests that they cannot live 95% in their neighborhood. Note that I only counted for me - in the real world most people are in a marriage like relationship, each of the pair has their own interests and different jobs.

What we should aim for is everybody is in walking distance of 5 restaurants, 1 grocery store, 1 general goods store, 1 library, 1 elementary school (but not higher level - after about 6th grade students benefit from larger schools where they can take classes different from their neighbors), 2 parks, 3 churches. Then put them in close walking distance of good public transit so they can do other things that they do in life all the time (Note in particular going to work every day is not in the above list for most!). You should of course debate exactly what should be on the list and exact numbers, but the above is a good starting point.