10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023 • Hacker News Board

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#771

Post by agumonkey » Sun, Jul 21, 2024, 1:01 PM UTC

noduerme wrote: post #486

gwervc wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may throw a Godwin point as introduction, it doesn't change the fact that some groups indeed doesn't integrate well into France. And this is despite billions of welfare money given for housing, free education, free access to health, etc. You mentioned Gypsies, well I read scholarly work stating that they were warmly welcomed 4 centuries ago in the towns of my region, until people discovered a tendency of their pu…

Everywhere in Europe that welcomed Jews, their neighbors attacked them whenever the Plague came around, blaming them for poisoning wells. To be blunt, if that hadn't happened, the Jews would have probably disappeared into the general European population by the 15th Century. So you are supporting the point that village rumors led to a situation of permanent exclusion for Gypsies.

Sorry but I don't even need rumors about gypsies, as a kid some were schooled during months of winter, and they were .. surprisingly creative when it comes to harming you (and I'm being polite here). I know gypsy culture is also bringing beautiful music, and some are hard working people touring the country during the summer, but really you don't need to go far to have evidence of issues still existing to this day.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#772

Post by cmrdporcupine » Sun, Jul 21, 2024, 1:01 PM UTC

mfru wrote: post #760

mattmaroon wrote: post #730

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn’t brain drain imply the smarter people are moving? I’m not sure that’s what’s happening here. I think it’s anyone who can get out. When I was in Havana our AirBnB was next to the Spanish embassy. There was a long line every morning of potential emigres waiting for their turn. (I have no idea how the process works when they get to the front of the line, I just was told they were trying to get out of the country…

> After spending a couple weeks in Cuba it’s not hard to see why. Which is the consequence of being sanctioned into oblivion for decades by the global hegemon, much to the dislike of the entire rest of the world.

I used to have more sympathy for this position, and my political biases are strongly left wing, but having spent time in Cuba on and off for the last 20 years... time has shown just how incompetent and malevolent the Cuban regime is.

It would suck badly there without the sanctions, too.

Though I think the sanctions give the regime an excuse. Obama was right to start to lift restrictions... a decade of continued stagnation even after the sanctions lifted would have undermined the regime's ability to continue to rule more than anything else.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#773

Post by whydoineedthis » Sun, Jul 21, 2024, 1:01 PM UTC

hadlock wrote: post #628

paxys wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Cuban population of Miami is heavily republican and pro-embargo. This is why Obama got rid of it and Trump reinstated it.

What I can't understand is WHY are the people who escaped for a better life, pro embargo... What, 70 years later? Seems like it's only being highly effective at hurting the general population

My father migrated from Cuba in the 60's and anytime I asked him whether it was worth me visiting he promptly said

"No, absolutely not. Don't even waste your time considering it. Castro ruined it and it will never be the same".

I think the moral is that for many Cubans the embargo isn't against the people, it's against the Cuban government, and they genuinely hate the government with every fiber of their existence. They hate what Castro took from them and have no dissolutions that letting up the embargo would strengthen that governments rule while only providing minuscule benefits to the people. Until the government regime changes in Cuba, any pressure we can apply is worth it.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#774

Post by KennyBlanken » Sun, Jul 21, 2024, 1:06 PM UTC

gottorf wrote: post #201

labrador wrote: post #107

I support immigration and oppose the Republican anti-immigrant platform because it seems to me there is significant brain drain from many countries to the U.S. and that contributes to our success. For example, in this article is about white collar crime, it points out that many Somali-Americans were professionals back in Somalia. I'm not concerned about the crime because that seems like a somewhat higher tendency unt…

> I'm not concerned about the crime You may not be concerned about the crime, but many voters are. The author of the article you linked to also exhorts the Somali immigrant community to not engage in crime. > because that seems like a somewhat higher tendency until the 2nd and 3rd generation is able to make it into established society. History and data from various European nations suggest that some immigrant groups…

> You may not be concerned about the crime, but many voters are.

What voters are "concerned" about and "reality" tend to be highly divorced from each other these days.

https://www.ojp.gov/library/publications/comparing-crime-rat...

> The study found that undocumented immigrants had substantially lower crime rates than native-born citizens and legal immigrants across a range of felony offenses. Relative to undocumented immigrants, U.S.-born citizens are over 2 times more likely to be arrested for violent crimes, 2.5 times more likely to be arrested for drug crimes, and over 4 times more likely to be arrested for property crimes.

Would you prefer a conservative source? Here ya go. https://www.cato.org/blog/illegal-immigrants-have-low-homici...

Conservative voters also think crime in general is spiraling out of control, because a certain fan of fake tanning products keeps shouting it to them. It's not even remotely true. Both violent and property crime have plunged for decades and by and large is still falling: https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/20/2024...

Hilariously, a significant uptick in homicides occurred during Fake Tanning Product's presidency, and it's dropped during Biden's:

> In 2020, for example, the U.S. murder rate saw its largest single-year increase on record – and by 2022, it remained considerably higher than before the coronavirus pandemic. Preliminary data for 2023, however, suggests that the murder rate fell substantially last year.

Voters were also 'concerned' Democrats were running a pedo ring out of a pizza shop basement. That pizza shop does not even have a basement. By your logic, we should be hiring more FBI agents to inspect pizza shops looking for pedo rings because "voters are concerned" and writing legislation that requires pizza shop owners get CORI checks.

> History and data from various European nations

Why are you using historical data from another continent that is very different culturally, when there's data from the US Undocumented migrants and immigrants in the US commit half the crime US citizens do. Probably because they're here to work to do things like send money home, and so they're keeping their heads down (not to mention, busy working...)

I already provided a study, but here's more about the issue. The Brennan Center article includes links to numerous studies refuting your claims. The evidence is overwhelmingly conclusive: immigrants, documented or not, commit significantly fewer crimes per capita than US citizens.

https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/debu...

https://www.npr.org/2024/03/08/1237103158/immigrants-are-les...

https://news.northwestern.edu/stories/2024/03/immigrants-are...

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2024/...

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#775

Post by KennyBlanken » Sun, Jul 21, 2024, 1:09 PM UTC

RubberbandSoul wrote: post #662

init wrote: post #639

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can you explain in what way did this manifest in Sweden for instance? Or have any data/evidence besides some semi-vague claims about antisemitism and some immutable characteristics of European societies (which are hardly monolithic to begin with). If you live in Sweden then you will also know that the state puts refugees in the same areas (Rinkeby, Vivalla, Tensta, etc ...). These areas are then labeled as unsafe b…

> state puts refugees in the same areas (Rinkeby, Vivalla, Tensta, etc ...). No it doesn't. Refugees are placed in municipalities all over Sweden but most choose to move to the big cities as soon as they can and end up in these districts because they are the cheapest. > slightly elevated crime rate. Citation needed. Compared to what? Casual crime is very high compared to traditional Swedish society. Also a lot of cri…

> Citation needed. Compared to what? Casual crime is very high compared to traditional Swedish society. Also a lot of crime goes unreported because the locals don't trust the police to be able to do anything.

Citation needed? You haven't provided a single citation for any of the wild claims you've made.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#776

Post by skrebbel » Sun, Jul 21, 2024, 1:12 PM UTC

spaniard89277 wrote: post #759

skrebbel wrote: post #686

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great observation. I’m European and I agree. We Europeans love to look down upon America when it comes to stuff like functional government, bicycle paths and public services, but wrt immigration we’re so far behind the US, it’s not even funny. > a path toward integration (as in, "to become American"; there is neither an equivalent aspiration nor option "to become French") We really need to copy this vibe wholesale fr…

The only reason you're thinking this way it's because you're thinking about problematic migrants, but there are many others you don't see. They don't need to become French, Spanish, Dutch, etc. They're perfectly fine feeling from $country in $eurocountry, going on with their lifes. Europe is not the US, it can't be, and that doesn't mean we're at fault of everything. Many poor migrants come and do ok and have the sam…

I attack the idea that someone born and raised in, say, NL whose grandparents moved in from, say, Turkey, is considered a Turk, often both by themselves and other people. In my opinion, if someone is born and raised here, they’re Dutch, or something like “Turkish-Dutch” maybe, but instead everybody talks about them like they are an immigrant.

To lock people inside their little immigrant identity groups, even when done out of some loving inclusive anti-racism vibe, has the adverse effect of what’s intended. It’s totally possible to be Dutch and Turkish and we should celebrate that, not fight it.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#777

Post by ReptileMan » Sun, Jul 21, 2024, 1:13 PM UTC

labrador wrote: post #107

I support immigration and oppose the Republican anti-immigrant platform because it seems to me there is significant brain drain from many countries to the U.S. and that contributes to our success. For example, in this article is about white collar crime, it points out that many Somali-Americans were professionals back in Somalia. I'm not concerned about the crime because that seems like a somewhat higher tendency unt…

Fair point. Everyone with education, practical skills and high iq is welcome legally. Any reasons why we need the rest? Especially crossing the borders illegally?

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#778

Post by BurningFrog » Sun, Jul 21, 2024, 1:14 PM UTC

sorushn wrote: post #726

BurningFrog wrote: post #163

Note that it's only the US that has an embargo against Cuba. The rest of the world trades pretty freely with them.

Sounds like you deeply misunderstand how US embargo works.

I'm repeating what I've read in many places, but I don't know much detail myself.

So that could be true.

If you have a link explaining how it actually works, I'd appreciate it!

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#779

Post by safety1st » Sun, Jul 21, 2024, 1:18 PM UTC

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #772

mfru wrote: post #760

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> After spending a couple weeks in Cuba it’s not hard to see why. Which is the consequence of being sanctioned into oblivion for decades by the global hegemon, much to the dislike of the entire rest of the world.

I used to have more sympathy for this position, and my political biases are strongly left wing, but having spent time in Cuba on and off for the last 20 years... time has shown just how incompetent and malevolent the Cuban regime is. It would suck badly there without the sanctions, too. Though I think the sanctions give the regime an excuse. Obama was right to start to lift restrictions... a decade of continued stagn…

Would it have really? I'm not particularly up to speed on the situation in Cuba, but there are a lot of awful regimes on this planet that remain in power simply because they have all the guns. These regimes are unpopular, they govern poorly, but no one can do anything about it, because the guns, tanks and soldiers are all under their control, and they've decided that a peaceful transition of power is not an option they wish to entertain. It's entirely possible for this to be a stable state that lasts for a lifetime.

Re: 10% of Cubans left Cuba between 2022 and 2023

#780

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Jul 21, 2024, 1:19 PM UTC

noduerme wrote: post #322

gottorf wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not concerned about the crime You may not be concerned about the crime, but many voters are. The author of the article you linked to also exhorts the Somali immigrant community to not engage in crime. > because that seems like a somewhat higher tendency until the 2nd and 3rd generation is able to make it into established society. History and data from various European nations suggest that some immigrant groups…

> various European nations [...] some immigrant groups American Jew here, who spent years living in France and Spain. I've heard the same polite euphemisms refering to Arabs and Gypsies from the mouths of members of the Front National. You know, before 1945 it was said in Europe that Jews weren't able to integrate fully with the host society. One might ask: Was that the Jews' fault? Or the host society's fault? It's…

[deleted]