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Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

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Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#771

Post by rendall »

GordonS wrote: post #679
rendall wrote: post #664

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "That is not at all what I said -" You literally did say that. In response to: >> "who deliberately positions military hardware such as rocket launchers in and around civilians and civilian infrastructure" You said: > "Gaza is a very dense, urban area, so it's kind of unavoidable." But ok, if you really are commenting in good faith then also explain why Hamas puts military hardware inside of schools, mosques and ho…

> You literally did say that Not literally, no. My comment was in response to the general case of "in and around civilians and civilian infrastructure" - that truly is unavoidable. You then stretched that to the inside of schools, mosques and hospitals. I don't have time to go through the first two links, but if the first is from UN I'll certainly take it at face value. As for the second link, I'm sorry, but when the…

> ...when the IDF has told so very many lies, and been caught in them so many times - the IDF simply cannot be trusted.

Not a thing that happened, but it has a become a truism in certain circles that Jews lie, which naturally transforms to "IDF lies".

> it's kind of odd for proponents of Israel's ethnic cleansing/genocide to bring up war crimes

Your poison pill aside, it's not odd for proponents of Israel to bring up war crimes because Israel is a civilized, democratic nation who values the rule of law. Her opponents, however, do not, and will accuse in a mirror.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#772

Post by GordonS »

GordonS wrote: post #640
jncfhnb wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not ignore, no. But the bar for holding one accountable for collateral damage changes. Considering, for example, the staggering scale of tunnels that have been built to funnel military supplies through civilians areas; clearing operations to destroy these areas entirely feels defensible. When a hospital is used as an arms hub, it is incredibly complex and costly to try and seize it by encirclement and small arms sieg…

> the staggering scale of tunnels that have been built to funnel military supplies through civilians areas; clearing operations to destroy these areas entirely feels defensible "clearing operations" for tunnels involves heavy bombing above ground, which will kill civilians and destroy civilian homes and infrastructure - there is nothing "defensible" about that. Also, many tunnels are supposedly used for civilian smug…

> Also, many tunnels are supposedly used for civilian smuggling of foods, medicines, luxuries etc - and only exist because of Israel's blockade

I wanted to add a bit more about this, to illustrate how punitive Israel's blockade is. Israel inspects everything entering Gaza, prohibiting much of it. Some of the things Israel has banned from entering Gaza include:

  - Crayons
  - Books
  - Candles
  - Chocolate
  - Newspapers
  - Vinegar
  - Potato chips (crisps)
  - Sewing machines
  - Fishing rods
  - Sheets
  - Blankets
  - Wedding dresses
  - Jam
  - Coriander
  - Seeds (so Gazans can't grow food)
This helps to illustrate the level of control and punitive authoritaranism that Israel has exerted over Gaza, prior to Oct 7th - it's all about collective punishment of Gazans, with the aim of forcing them to leave.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#773

Post by whiterknight »

whatshisface wrote: post #54
McNutty wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strongly disagree. This platform for tech news should not become a place for political posts, nor even for posting regular news headlines. Yes we know that reddit sucks but stop trying to make hn into reddit. Also the community can't handle it, just look at the handful of comments we already have here.

We know and work with Israelis and former Palestinians, and it is difficult enough to navigate the stresses without the added complexity of each side reading totally different news outlets and never talking about it in the same forums. I always try to handle this stuff at work (and political issues are absolutely part of the lunchtime tapestry that impacts the cohesion of engineering teams) by sticking to the facts,…

[flagged]

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#774

Post by diordiderot »

hef19898 wrote: post #475
flyinglizard wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hamas is the sovereign in Gaza. It’s literally their elected government.

You should check when the last election was. And even if the majority supports Hamas, it is NEVER a justification to target civilians.

72% isn't some[0].

Civilians aren't targeted just collateral damage.

0:https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palesti....

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#775

Post by marcosdumay »

falcor84 wrote: post #723
marcosdumay wrote: post #687

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We mostly don't waste time dwelling on the ethics of long dead people, and the few that do are usually seen as some ivory-tower kinds without any concern for present issues. But rest assured that the people that study those things know quite well it's the country leaders declaring wars, not the people.

Point taken. But I'm still wondering where we should be drawing the line. For example, Russia has arguably not had fair and free elections for over two decades, so should we refrain from saying that there's a war between Russia and Ukraine and instead say that there's a war between Putin's party (United Russia) and Ukraine"?

If you believe Russians are somehow to blame for this war, you are completely deluded.

Some (many) tens of thousands of people were arrested for complaining... But don't bother, their punishment was only half a year or so in prision... And in unrelated news, some (many) tens of thousands of Russian prisoners were sent to die at the Ukraine winter, on the frontline, without guns or even socks.

But no, all Russians are in full support of this war. You can read all about this on the news.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#776

Post by gryzzly »

hef19898 wrote: post #746
gryzzly wrote: post #738

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Sometimes I wished HN had an "ignore user" button. Basically everytjing in your wall of text is either wrong or so turned on its head and misunderstood it could as well be wrong. The key word you don't seem to understand is this: proportinality.

[flagged]

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#777

Post by bavell »

incognos wrote: post #710
bawolff wrote: post #634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Prior to making unfounded statements, might I suggest you become informed? > Israel has occupied Palestine since 1948 Perhaps you should check your dates before calling people misinformed. Gaza was occupied by Egypt until 1967.

For the record, you do not have to occupy 100% to be an occupier. If you push the current residents out of their own homes and lands and occupy said land, you are an occupier regardless of the amount of land you occupy. The fact still stands, Israel has occupied Palestine since 1948. Also a fact, Israel invented terrorism ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing )

Interesting, do you think illegal immigrants are occupiers? By your definition it would seem so.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#778

Post by diordiderot »

GordonS wrote: post #611
tromp wrote: post #588

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel neither occupied nor controlled the Gaza interior prior to Hamas' attack. They only controlled the border and what goes in and out of Gaza (some cross border tunnels excepted). Within Gaza, Hamas and the Palistinian National Authority ruled.

> They only controlled the border and what goes in and out of Gaza "only" is used here to diminish the suffering of the Gazan people. Israel has had Gaza under a brutal blockade, across air, land and sea. They control everything that enters or leaves, and infamously were so cruel they counted the calories entering Gaza [0] [1]. Israel even claims control of the air over Gaza, and prevents civilians from collecting ra…

Damn, I didn't know that Israeli troops also controlled Egypt.

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#779

Post by GordonS »

reducesuffering wrote: post #623
GordonS wrote: post #604

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Setting aside the fact that these are numbers provided by Hamas The UN and Lancet [0] believe the numbers are credible. Let's not forget there are likely 10k+ civilians still burried under rubble too. > Hamas has miles of tunnels to provide cover for their rapists Come on, you are not commenting in good faith. There is zero credible evidence that any rape took place, Hamas have staunchly denied it, and from what re…

What happened to “believe women?” You think in a sudden 1143 person civilian homicidal attack, going door to door, no rape happened? “UN team says rape, gang rape likely occurred during Hamas attack on Israel” UN: “The mission team received clear and convincing information that sexual violence, including rape, sexualized torture, and cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment occurred against some women and children duri…

> What happened to “believe women?”

And where are the women whom we should believe?

> You think in a sudden 1143 person civilian homicidal attack, going door to door, no rape happened

Firstly, the latest figure from Israel is that 695 Israeli civilians were killed, with the rest being security forces. Of those 695, many were armed settlers.

Secondly, the fact you assume rape did occur, especially in the total absence of any evidence, is bizarre, and suggests you may have some deeply-seated biases against Palestinians and/or Muslims.

As I explained in another comment here [0], the UN report is a farce insisted upon by Israel to aid in laundering their lurid attrocity propaganda. The report is not the result of an investigation, it simply regurgitates what Israel presented to Pramila Patten. From the report:

> As a result of the aforementioned challenges, it must be noted that the information gathered by the mission team was in a large part sourced from Israeli national institutions. This is due to the absence of United Nations entities operating in Israel, as well as the lack of cooperation by the State of Israel with relevant United Nations bodies with an investigative mandate

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=GordonS#39629197

Re: Journalist casualties in the Israel-Gaza war

#780

Post by skulk »

pierat wrote: post #730

Being in the USA, I look at what I can do, and it's effectively nothing. There's the whole movement to 'not support any Democrat candidate's during the primaries, which is wavering the non-committed around 8-15%. Aside sending a vote message to Biden, I'm powerless to do more. Honestly, the US govt needs to quit selling/giving/loaning weaponry to Israel. Won't solve the problem, but at least we wouldn't be supporting…

While the US violently cleansed the land of various indigenous peoples, there was no Internet through which stern condemnation could arrive. The Israelis have to do the same but broadcasted to every single person's palm. It's quite unfortunate for them, really. Sometimes you gotta help your little bro out.
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