The pro-Israel information war • Hacker News Board

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#771

Post by Qem » Sat, Dec 09, 2023, 2:54 AM UTC

EvgeniyZh wrote: post #450

abusada wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hello there, a Palestinian from the west bank here speaking, let me tell you something, our resistance has nothing to do with Israel being a Jewish state, if my brother stole my house and killed my children i will fight him just the same, and you would too and everyone else (I assume). jewish, muslim, christian, vegan.. doesn't matter. Now Hamas does play on the string of religion to get to people, and so does Israel…

> and when we chant "From the river to the sea" we don't mean to kill anyone Don't you think it may be useful to use a different slogan from the people who mean and do that? > if we can be free and live together, but have dignity and human rights, so be it! But we can't. There won't be a one-state solution that satisfies everyone, and the earlier we understand it, the better. For the same reasons, the right of return…

> But we can't. There won't be a one-state solution that satisfies everyone, and the earlier we understand it, the better.

South Africa managed to pull it, and end apartheid. Why wouldn't it work for Israel?

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#772

Post by megous » Sat, Dec 09, 2023, 2:55 AM UTC

asylteltine wrote: post #622

The_Colonel wrote: post #558

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that forcing this dichotomy is part of the deliberate pro-Israel media strategy - if you despise Hamas inhumane acts, then of course you need to be pro-Israel. They want you to focus on Hamas to steer away your attention from what Israel has been doing. (this is also one of the reasons why Hamas has historically been an asset for the Israeli right)

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"How do you honestly support people who elected Hamas"

Speaking against mass destruction of key societal institutions and infrastructure, mass murder and attrocities, and starvation of Gazans by Israel's government policy in its current military operation against Gaza, is not a high mental bar for giving "support". It's easy to support that.

I don't have anything against Jews. But I can see that people in Gaza, being under siege by Israel for almost two decades, and under direct occupation before that, and being displaced or having ancestors displaced from their original homes, by Israel before the occupation, may dislike Israel or Jews. (easy to conflate the two, given that that's the Isreal's media policy) And I'll not judge them for that.

If this is insane, fine...

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#773

Post by HDThoreaun » Sat, Dec 09, 2023, 2:55 AM UTC

Georgelemental wrote: post #765

HDThoreaun wrote: post #641

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a lot of Americans either consciously or subconciosuly see the similarity between Israel's situation and the US's with regards to the natives. If there was a native independence movement that resorted to terrorism the us would flatten every reservation in the country.

There's definitely a similarity, but no, modern US would not behave like modern Israel is behaving. Our response to the 2020 riots was extremely hands-off relative to the level of violence of the rioters (who, in one instance, took cobtrol by force of a section of a major US city, declared secession, and held the area for several days [0]). [0]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitol_Hill_Occupied_Protes...

The 2020 riots were nowhere close to October 7th. You think that if a native american separatist group committed a 9/11 level attack the US response would be "hand off"?

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#774

Post by underlipton » Sat, Dec 09, 2023, 2:58 AM UTC

dijit wrote: post #377

underlipton wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Okay - then what should be Israel's response? The same response I have concluded should have been the US' response to 9/11: turn the other cheek, and invest heavily in reconciling with "enemy" forces while rebuilding "enemy" infrastructure and institutions, while dealing with individual bad actors on a case-by-case basis as a matter of legal (rather than martial) procedure. And I'm not joking. I feel bad for Israeli…

1) thats politically a dead end, nobody will immediately make friends after a massacre and mass rape. Especially after decades of tensions and double especially when the muslim world once descended on Israel at once. 2) Quiet reminder that there are 1B followers of Islam and there has always been a wish (especially from Iran) to end the existence of Israel: the Palestinian people are unfortunately a pawn in that game…

>nobody will immediately make friends after a massacre and mass rape

Certainly, Israel has seen to it that it will be much more difficult. Which would be my point.

>Quiet reminder that there are 1B followers of Islam and there has always been a wish (especially from Iran) to end the existence of Israel: the Palestinian people are unfortunately a pawn in that game.

As a black American, I understand the Israeli hypersensitivity to even the whiff of anti-Semitic violence as the harbinger of a possible repeat of history that should never be repeated. I also understand that lashing out at every perceived slight as the harbinger of a possible repeat of history that should never be repeated is a great way to make allies unsympathetic, as they get caught in the crossfire. The real enemy is the war you want.

I would like Israel to reach a state where it doesn't constantly fear for its existence. The road there passes through, "Not doing another Nakba."

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#775

Post by Georgelemental » Sat, Dec 09, 2023, 2:58 AM UTC

marcell wrote: post #673

ilitirit wrote: post #654

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In contrast, Israel has a ~20% Arab minority (excluding Gaza and West Bank). I'm reminded of an anecdote (probably false) of when someone was asked in an interview why all manhole covers are round. He replied that not all manhole covers are round. They countered "Well, just consider the round ones".

Well Gaza is self governing (or was, until Oct 7th). Israel can't (couldn't) impose apartheid on Gaza any more than France imposes apartheid on Germany by being a separate country with borders. West Bank is more complicated, but the same concept applies. If Israel was motivated by racist or other tendencies to want to impose apartheid, they would start with the areas they have full control over. Why would they allow…

> separate country with borders.

Gaza does not have borders it controls, Israel controls Gaza's air and sea borders.

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#776

Post by slibhb » Sat, Dec 09, 2023, 2:59 AM UTC

mastrsplyntr wrote: post #395

Why is America so fixated on Israel? Groups like AIPAC and the Israeli lobby seem to be steering U.S. policies in ways that don't necessarily benefit the U.S., while potentially harming its interests. Here's what's at stake: This alliance seems to be turning about two billion people and dozens of muslim-majority nations against America, driving them towards alliances with countries like China. American taxpayer money…

It's not just America. Everyone is fixated on the Jews (for or against). There's plenty of ethno-religious conflicts all around the world but the world only cares about one of them.

Also, "lobbying" is a boogeyman here. Americans support Israel for all sorts of reasons that have nothing to do with lobbying. Israel is a settler society, it's a country of immigrants, much like the US. Israel has a rule of law, it's a democracy, much like the US. Israel has long existed within a sea of hostile Arab nations, none of which are democracies (okay minus Lebanon, kind of) and none which particularly resemble of the US. People are starting to look at the Israelis as bullies today but for most of the 20th century, they were viewed as the underdog. And finally there's a religious element: Americans are fairly Christian and feel a fellowship with Jews and view Israel as a custodian of the Holy Land. As a result of these factors and more, there's a strong affinity between Americans and Israel.

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#777

Post by dotancohen » Sat, Dec 09, 2023, 3:04 AM UTC

mhalberstram wrote: post #734

rendall wrote: post #703

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My deepest condolences. Words fail.

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Re: The pro-Israel information war

#778

Post by Georgelemental » Sat, Dec 09, 2023, 3:05 AM UTC

HDThoreaun wrote: post #773

Georgelemental wrote: post #765

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's definitely a similarity, but no, modern US would not behave like modern Israel is behaving. Our response to the 2020 riots was extremely hands-off relative to the level of violence of the rioters (who, in one instance, took cobtrol by force of a section of a major US city, declared secession, and held the area for several days [0]). [0]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitol_Hill_Occupied_Protes...

The 2020 riots were nowhere close to October 7th. You think that if a native american separatist group committed a 9/11 level attack the US response would be "hand off"?

We would have responded with much more force, but we would not have carpet-bombed Arizona. We didn't send out the bombers after Oklahoma City, either.

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#779

Post by Qem » Sat, Dec 09, 2023, 3:12 AM UTC

scelerat wrote: post #730

wolverine876 wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> chants like "from the river to the sea" (meaning destroying Jewish country) What is the truth of that? I've seen Israeli advocates make that claim and many repeat it. I've also seen an explainer in legitimate source (maybe the NY Times?) say that it means both Palestinians and Jews should be free. Does anyone have some actual, authoritative information? Something from before October 7th might be good. > saying Isra…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_the_river_to_the_sea QUOTE The phrase was popularised in the 1960s as part of a wider call for Palestinian liberation creating a democratic state freeing Palestinians from oppression from Israeli as well as from other Arab regimes such as Jordan and Egypt.[6][7] In the 1960s, the PLO used it to call for a democratic secular state encompassing the entirety of mandatory Palestine whic…

> Even in the most charitable interpretations about what happens to the Jews living there, it is a call to replace the state of Israel with a completely different state.

Completely different state appears to be roughly the same state, minus apartheid. If it worked in South Africa, why wouldn't it work here?

Re: The pro-Israel information war

#780

Post by jltsiren » Sat, Dec 09, 2023, 3:13 AM UTC

etothepii wrote: post #760

A1kmm wrote: post #521

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the fundamental assumption of the analysis that there are two mutually exclusive groups, 'pro-Israel' and 'pro-Palestine' is flawed. It is possible to simultaneously support the interests of Palestinian and Israeli civilians (and support a peaceful Israel within the 1967 boundaries), while condemning the massacre of civilians under the orders of Likud (and other far right parties) and Hamas. I think it is cur…

Why does the scale matter? In the legal codes with which I am familiar mens rea matters. Murder is not just worse than manslaughter it is on a different level. Western criminal codes generally allow for no punishment, perhaps even no guilt, for a manslaughter. If Israel could remove Hamas without injuring any non-combatants I think they would. It makes a difference. Almost by definition suggesting that scale is a fac…

Scale is the most important factor when talking about the harm done. A dead person is dead, regardless of if it was murder or manslaughter.

Criminal punishments are more about the social consequences than about the crime itself. If someone gets X years in prison for crime A and another person gets 2X years for crime B, it doesn't mean that crime B was twice as bad. It only means that after taking a large number of factors into account, it made sense to give twice as long sentence for crime B.