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US Department of Energy: Fusion Ignition Achieved

energy.gov

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Re: US Department of Energy: Fusion Ignition Achieved

#771

Post by _cs2017_ »

jboy55 wrote: post #696
floxy wrote: post #686

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess we should take this as a lesson in communications. The "breakeven" thing is a red-herring that should have been have been left out of the message, or at least only mentioned as a footnote. The critical ELI5 message that should have been presented is that they used a laser to create some tiny amount of fusion. But we have been able to do that for a while now. The important thing is that they were then able to…

and not a gigantic amount of fusion that you have in thermonuclear weapons, Ironically, this experiment was designed primarily to simulate the fusion you have in thermonuclear weapons. That's the NIF's purpose and the purpose of this experiment. From Nature https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-04440-7 "Herrmann acknowledges as much, saying that there are many steps on the path to laser fusion energy. “NIF was n…

How would it help build better weapons? I thought the existing thermonuclear bombs do the job perfectly fine. Sure, the military might want to make them a bit smaller or a bit cheaper, but is it really such a big deal as to warrant a major announcement?

Re: US Department of Energy: Fusion Ignition Achieved

#772

Post by Retric »

naikrovek wrote: post #760
Retric wrote: post #743

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The paper was very clear what was involved and that information was poorly communicated. The experiment used X energy from a laser pulse to get Y thermal energy. The issue w0mbat referred to is to be self sustaining you need to use the output energy to drive the process. Aka the important number is after all relevant losses including electricity > lasers > fusion > heat > electricity, with each of those stages have l…

none of what anyone said is about a self-sustaining reaction. this is about more power leaving the reaction chamber than what entered it. that's all the announcement is about. this is NOT about how much energy it takes to ready the lasers. this is NOT about the electricity consumed by lighting, computers, cooling, or measurement or anything else-- none of that counts when you are measuring the efficiency of the react…

> none of what anyone said is about a self-sustaining reaction.

Actual power plants are self sustaining as in they use the electricity they produce to operate, it’s mandatory though not sufficient for any commercial fusion power plant.

So, this isn’t about a different way to “calculate reaction efficiency better than the physicists doing the work” he was directly quoting their numbers from the paper. It’s only a question of communicating the meaning of efficiency.

> this is about more energy leaving the reaction chamber than went in.

The exact same energy was there before and after fusion only it’s form changed. It might seem pedantic to point that out, but if you don’t make it clear people will misunderstand.

Also, the applied laser energy also leaves the reaction chamber so any fusion would be net positive thermal energy by that yardstick.

Re: US Department of Energy: Fusion Ignition Achieved

#773

Post by jacquesm »

xbmcuser wrote: post #767
moloch-hai wrote: post #736

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly the opposite: their task, assigned by Congress, is weapons work . Period. But pretending to work on "carbon-free energy" is good for funding, just now . Four years ago, being all about weapons opened the tap. Make no mistake, there is no story here. There will be no "unlimited free energy" from this, or any other fusion project. The fusion startups are spending down investors' money with zero possibility of p…

If they can get a continuous fusion reaction going converting the heat energy from that to electricity won't be a problem. Getting a contained fusion reaction that gives out more energy than input is the problem how to convert that into electricity is not going to be a problem.

> If they can get a continuous fusion reaction going converting the heat energy from that to electricity won't be a problem.

Even accepting the qualification that's not just a mere matter of engineering, capturing that heat from a source that hot is not without trouble. A bit like how there is plenty of energy in a single lightning strike and yet we can't easily catch it even though in principle 'just build a large enough capacitor and connect it to a lightning rod' is a workable recipe.

> Getting a contained fusion reaction that gives out more energy than input is the problem

Not in the least because the container itself is a very hard problem to solve.

> how to convert that into electricity is not going to be a problem.

It is also a problem, albeit a lesser one.

The better way to look at all of these fusion projects is a way to do an end run around arms control limitations with as a very unlikely by-product the possible future generation of energy. But I would not hold my breath for that. Meanwhile, I'm all for capturing more of the energy output by that other fusion reactor that we all have access to, and learning how to store it over longer periods. Preferably to start with a couple of days with something that doesn't degrade (think very high density super capacitor rather than a battery), but I'll take advanced battery technology if it can be done cheap enough per storage cycle. We're getting there.

Re: US Department of Energy: Fusion Ignition Achieved

#774

Post by jacquesm »

_cs2017_ wrote: post #771
jboy55 wrote: post #696

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and not a gigantic amount of fusion that you have in thermonuclear weapons, Ironically, this experiment was designed primarily to simulate the fusion you have in thermonuclear weapons. That's the NIF's purpose and the purpose of this experiment. From Nature https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-04440-7 "Herrmann acknowledges as much, saying that there are many steps on the path to laser fusion energy. “NIF was n…

How would it help build better weapons? I thought the existing thermonuclear bombs do the job perfectly fine. Sure, the military might want to make them a bit smaller or a bit cheaper, but is it really such a big deal as to warrant a major announcement?

Given the limitations on nuclear research for weapons purposes any information that can be gleaned from these experiments that is 'dual use' is more than welcome with the parties that are currently stymied by various arms control agreements. This is also why you will see a lot of supercomputer capacity near such research, it allows simulation of experiments with high fidelity rather than the experiments themselves. These are all exploitation of loopholes. The biggest value is probably in being able to confirm that the various computer models accurately predict the experimental outcomes. This when confirmed at scale will allow for the computer models to be used for different applications (ie: weapons research) with a higher level of confidence.

Re: US Department of Energy: Fusion Ignition Achieved

#775

Post by prpl »

_cs2017_ wrote: post #771
jboy55 wrote: post #696

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and not a gigantic amount of fusion that you have in thermonuclear weapons, Ironically, this experiment was designed primarily to simulate the fusion you have in thermonuclear weapons. That's the NIF's purpose and the purpose of this experiment. From Nature https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-04440-7 "Herrmann acknowledges as much, saying that there are many steps on the path to laser fusion energy. “NIF was n…

How would it help build better weapons? I thought the existing thermonuclear bombs do the job perfectly fine. Sure, the military might want to make them a bit smaller or a bit cheaper, but is it really such a big deal as to warrant a major announcement?

experimental verification of models with actual materials used in existing bombs, for one.

Re: US Department of Energy: Fusion Ignition Achieved

#776

Post by Mistletoe »

vzcx wrote: post #684
StevenNunez wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Elon Musk ::ducks::

lmao, brilliant scientist Elon Musk is NOT. A closer comparison would be general Groves, someone who can get the team and resources in place so the work can get done.

He's actually the complete opposite based on reports of what it is like to work with him at SpaceX and Tesla in recent years. Employees describe having to avoid him so he doesn't meddle in the projects and screw them up.

Maybe he was like you describe long ago but something...happened.

Re: US Department of Energy: Fusion Ignition Achieved

#777

Post by prpl »

rtpg wrote: post #688
postingawayonhn wrote: post #644

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I understand it that's largely because some of their equipment is outdated or not optimised. Building a new facility from scratch would result in a much lower power consumption from the grid.

given how long it takes to build these places, I feel like the number of iteration cycles is an important metric, especially when other options are not standing still. I do understand that with more focus things can happen faster but you can really only pour so much concrete per day. Hopeful that we can figure out "leaner" ways to get this done. I would love to see progress on this stuff, just don't like the idea of…

Iteration is often overlapping. Day 2 of operations is usually planning the next generation (for a given project)

Adding more funding will probably see more parallel projects as well, especially at major institutions

Re: US Department of Energy: Fusion Ignition Achieved

#778

Post by Mistletoe »

Balgair wrote: post #574
mustacheemperor wrote: post #2

I don't know about everyone else, but I'm taking this particular moment just to swell with pride and excitement for this achievement by science and forget about the details of how much more needs to be done to create the first power plant. I'm remembering when I first learned about fusion energy development, how distant and unfeasible it seemed, and regardless of how long the road ahead still is it's incredible how f…

I agree. This is a Big deal. Like, first-lightbulb big, or polio-vaccine big. My kids are likely to spend the majority of their lives living a world where energy is clean, cheap, and available to everyone. Climate change is something that is not only going to be stopped, but can be reversed for them. Energy grids can be made to be smaller and mutually supporting, lessening the impacts of disasters. Oil dependency and…

This is such a profound and deep misunderstanding of this news story.

Re: US Department of Energy: Fusion Ignition Achieved

#779

Post by moloch-hai »

clavalle wrote: post #492
Mistletoe wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good Lord the universe is old. To think of how rare all that must be and how it had to have time to somehow get here to our planet.

If they weren't here, we wouldn't be able to talk about it. I'd be interested to know if we're in an element rich vein of the wider universe or if all the good stuff is more or less evenly distributed?

Phosphorus is supposed to be rare in the wider world. Considering how central it is to everything important, life might find it very difficult to start in our temperature range, without.
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