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Mikhail Gorbachev has died

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Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#771

Post by distances »

kunagi7 wrote: post #741
rixrax wrote: post #680

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the dissolution of soviet union is not over yet. You can see this nowhere as clearly as in russias attack on Ukraine[0] where imperialistic russians that dream of restoring the glory and borders of soviet union[1] are waging their genocidal war. Meanwhile they are using hunger[2] and energy as their weapons against the rest of the world[3]. If the russians are not stopped in Ukraine, then there is no reason to be…

First of all, RIP Gorbachev. The Soviet Union ceased to exist in December 26, 1991 [0]. Russia is not the USSR, and it's almost impossible it will never be anything remotely close. Most of the former USSR industrial capabilities where either abandoned, razed or looted. Russia's modern industry (including military) depends heavily on European (now sanctioned and obtained via third countries) and Chinese imports. This…

> Russia is mostly burning the gigantic former USSR reserves until they dry out. And Ukraine is way bigger than Abkhazia, Ossetia or Transnistria so it has the largest burn rate since Afghanistan.

As far as I've understood it, the burn rate is way, way higher than in Afghanistan. Soviet-Afghan War took ten years. I don't think we've seen this burn rate anywhere in the industrialized world since WW2.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#772

Post by qikInNdOutReply »

danbruc wrote: post #743
rixrax wrote: post #680

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the dissolution of soviet union is not over yet. You can see this nowhere as clearly as in russias attack on Ukraine[0] where imperialistic russians that dream of restoring the glory and borders of soviet union[1] are waging their genocidal war. Meanwhile they are using hunger[2] and energy as their weapons against the rest of the world[3]. If the russians are not stopped in Ukraine, then there is no reason to be…

From your link [1]. He [Putin] became briefly close to President George W Bush - who even claimed to have glimpsed Putin's soul - until the Iraq War drove them apart. In Iraq, Putin insisted that international law must be upheld - no invasion could be allowed without approval from the United Nations Security Council, and that approval was not forthcoming. This is also Putin and it is not singular. If you listen to hi…

He joined the checheyna war instantly after coming into office. Actions speak louder then a million voices. The empires resurection was part of day one and all else was blatant lies, in public to hypnotize the chickens.

Part of those lies also was, to become as "spokesman" for all sorts of internal oppossition, left and right alike.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#773

Post by ztrww »

ironcurtain wrote: post #661
interfixus wrote: post #623

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone previously pointed out, the perspective here is that Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia were invaded and forcibly annexed in 1940.

Very much like Hawaii and Florida, weren’t they? Weren’t those countries ruled for decade or so by dictators who ceased power in late 20s? Didn’t Soviet actually organized elections and then their parliaments voted to join the USSR? I’m sure it’s all a sham but history is a bit nuanced.

unilateral secession was not illegal according to the constitution of the USSR. I’m sure it (the constitution) was obviously a sham but history is a bit nuanced.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#774

Post by refurb »

euroderf wrote: post #627
idlewords wrote: post #61

Gorbachev secured his place in history by what he didn't do. While never endorsing the end of the eastern bloc, he made it clear beginning in the late 1980's that unlike his predecessors, he would not oppose democratic reforms in Eastern Europe by force. To general astonishment, he kept this promise, and with the regrettable exception of Lithuania this commitment to not repeating the crimes of his predecessors is Gor…

Not to pick a fight, but I feel it's important then to note that it was not Reagan who "won" the Cold War. It was Gorbachev, who had the political courage (and idealism) to take the leap.

I mean, if by "won" you mean, "watched powerlessly as the whole rotten system collapsed around him and didn't slaughter thousands of his own people to stop it"... yeah, Gorbachev "won" the cold war.

Not what I would define as "winning", but ok.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#775

Post by wawjgreen »

hilbert42 wrote: post #758
wawjgreen wrote: post #497

good riddance. he was an uneducated idiot, who is indirectly responsible for the millions that were killed in Afghanistan, in 1992. In 1989, when he pulled the red army out of Afghanistan--he also cut all aid to the Democratic Republic of Afghanistan. the then-president of DRA went to Moscow to persuade Garbageoff to not to do so, predicting that the terrorist zealots would overrun his government leading to chaos in…

"he was an uneducated idiot," The above statement is not true based on any number of authoritative accounts. By saying that you have undermined any value your comment otherwise may have had.

it's you again, the "committee" man. actually, since Garbageoff did not do well in school and he was admitted to the universities in Leningrad on the strength of a medal he had won that was given to him based on the large amount of crops he had harvested (he was a "machinist"). There he wrote to his family members that the studies were "grueling", meaning he merely winged it and because he was not cut out for education, he was sent back to his village to do more of crop-harvesting.

So yeah, he did go to school but he was not what you call truly educated (just like other self-important, arrogant people suffering from Dunning-Kruger effect). That he was an idiot can also be seen from his posing in advertisements while his countrymen were starving in the long lines for bread--something unthinkable during any USSR year.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#776

Post by ztrww »

pastacacioepepe wrote: post #709
interfixus wrote: post #623

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone previously pointed out, the perspective here is that Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia were invaded and forcibly annexed in 1940.

Irrelevant. Literally any country in the world would suppress independence declarations with violence, regardless of good justifications or not. That's just how nations work and has nothing to do with USSR specifically.

Well Britain allowed Scotland to have a vote, Czechoslovakia is another example, even back in 1905 Sweden allowed Norway to declare independence without a violent response. There are many other examples. So you’re wrong...

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#777

Post by qikInNdOutReply »

dale_glass wrote: post #766
nivenkos wrote: post #745

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well of course, they are at war. Especially as weapons and money flood in from both sides, escalating the conflict further (long-range missiles from the USA that can hit Sevastopol, the economic conscription of the Chechens and Daghestanis in Russia, etc.) But do you think this conflict is worth it? Do you support the Ukrainian claim on the Crimea? Is it worth the bloodshed and economic destruction? It's as though we…

> But do you think this conflict is worth it? For Russia, no. For Putin specifically, maybe. Russia is going to end up in a much worse position without any significant (and maybe any at all) gain. Putin is in a position where backtracking is difficult and dangerous, so he probably won't until things become completely untenable. For Ukraine it's very worth it because they're fighting for their own existence. > Do you…

No, its the same as with Weimar Germany, once the "we will be big again" sentiments wins over, compromise just gives the perpetrators results. The party was over the moment "greatness/stability" won over "quality of life/freedom/chaos" in the heads of the common man.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#778

Post by hilbert42 »

nivenkos wrote: post #731
poushkar wrote: post #711

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here we come again with the "Ukrainian nationalism" and "coup". So boring. Will you ever update your guide on Russian propaganda? Even the russian troll factory stopped using these arguments like 2 years ago.

I'm not pro-Russian. But here in Europe we've had 25% of our savings and purchasing power destroyed almost overnight, for a conflict that really has nothing to do with us (CIS borders and nationalism after the USSR). Why can't we just be neutral? We didn't do this for Georgia's claim in Ossetia or Armenia's claim with Azerbaijan (both similar scenarios), or the Iraq-Iran war, etc.

"But here in Europe we've had 25% of our savings and purchasing power destroyed almost overnight, for a conflict that really has nothing to do with us..."

Come now, how can you say that?

After the fall of the USSR, Europe willingly got into bed with the 'new' Russia because it saw an opportunistic economic advantage to do so.

Even back then it was a gamble for Europe to put too many of its eggs into that Russian basket and now it is paying the price. ...And a hefty one at that.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#779

Post by wawjgreen »

wiseowise wrote: post #691
wawjgreen wrote: post #640

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what do you exactly mean?

Red army was shedding blood of their own people to keep peace at Afghanistan.

If that were truly the case, the red army should not have entered Afghanistan in the first place and kept their little claws to themselves. Now that they entered and created chaos and conditions for civil war, it was on them to clean up the mess.

Moreover, red army was not really shedding all that much blood. They were sending Afghan army to the dangerous fronts--basically to die (my father was one and he told me how the Russians sent them off to an ambush. When the Afghan army halted because they knew they were gonna die, the Russians began shelling them in order to push them forward.).

In any case, the problems were created by Russians and it became their responsibility to fix it. Moreover, they had agreements and treaties and Garbageoff reneged on those.

To the little boy who lost his childhood and future because of his strategic stupidity he is guilty of deceit, incompetence and inhumanity and I will not stop praying that he continues to burn in hell for it.

Re: Mikhail Gorbachev has died

#780

Post by qikInNdOutReply »

nivenkos wrote: post #728
notahacker wrote: post #721

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The issue is that Ukraine refuses to allow for the self-determination of the Crimea and Donbass since Euromaidan. Why can't they just allow internationally managed referendums to take place? The internationally managed referendums Russia has never asked for and would never permit? Arguments that "real issue" with Russia repeatedly invading its smaller neighbours is that one of the neighbours won't grant something n…

I'm not pro-Russia either, I just don't understand why we're completely destroying our economies for a conflict that has nothing to do with us (post-USSR border division and nationalism).

No, but you are definatly following a script. Once the "Due Process self determination" runs out, you fall back to economics. Just dump the dialog tree?
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