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Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

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Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#771

Post by dnautics »

octoberfranklin wrote: post #735
dnautics wrote: post #570

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, I am profoundly in disagreement with Krugman about everything, but that's because he's right about everything, but in wrong ways, usually due to a huge, huge, blind spot at the root. And it's frustrating that he can take people in with his analysis because it's easy to accept his arguments thinking "just hard enough" (which is catnip for lazy intellectuals). Like for example with the Babysitter's coop. His…

Paul Krugman is the Malcolm Gladwell of economics.

I'll give him more credit than that (And I don't think Malcolm Gladwell is horrible, either). But their sins are categorically different: Gladwell is a perfectly good summarizer, he just needs to do be a bit less lazy and do a bit more deep research (to avoid detail errors like igonvalues e.g.) Krugman is not by any means lazy, he just expends a lot of intellectual resources without really thinking deeply. Subtle, but different. Actually kind of in a way going into Gladwell it's good to know that he is a shallow generalist, picking and choose lessons from his work and apply critical thinking as appropriate seems to be the natural default mode, it's much easier to take Krugman 'as an authority' and not bother to do the critical work.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#772

Post by chinathrow »

mac01021 wrote: post #599
lelanthran wrote: post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> 'Honestly? No' > > The 'No' alone would be enough, but the 'Honestly?' would me want to look for other jobs right away. Can you explain why one is worse than the other? (I'm not being facetious, I'd really rather like to know).

I suspect the GP is interpreting "Honestly?" as an expression of incredulity at being asked the question - as though the asker did not know their place as an employee. I can see how such an attitude would be offputting, but I do not believe that is the correct interpretation of the HR spokesperson's meaning.

You're right. English is not my first language and I've read the "Honestly?" more as "Seriously?".

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#773

Post by [deleted] »

antupis wrote: post #61
dnautics wrote: post #39

If it does, inflation has failed as a policy: https://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/02/13/the-case-for-hi... "in the long run, it’s really, really hard to cut nominal wages. Yet when you have very low inflation, getting relative wages right would require that a significant number of workers take wage cuts. So having a somewhat higher inflation rate would lead to lower unemployment, not just temporarily, but on a sus…

Smaller European nations did this kinda policies through 60s-90s and it worked fine. Now thanks Euro this kinda lever has closed most of them.

[deleted]

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#774

Post by vmception »

whimsicalism wrote: post #726
vmception wrote: post #646

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other side of this to remember is that highly compensated employees are still subjects to this reality. The numbers themselves dont actually matter. It doesnt matter if highly compensated to you means $88k or $150k annual compensation, $450k or $750k. If a single earner cant buy a home outright in 5 years in that area, then the compensation isn't high enough compared to when wages were keeping up. There was a hou…

> There was a housing shortage in the 1970s too, so the supply side isnt a worthwhile deflection. Uh, source on the housing shortage in the 1970s being even remotely close to this level? Because, yeah, demand outstripping the heck out of supply is the "deflection" I'd pick.

Regardless, landlords set the price. They always had the opportunity to post ridiculous prices, and they bring them to the price people accept. They dont have to go to the edge of what someone would accept. But they do.

The same tech worker (or whoever a local municipality happens to be pointing fingers at) would pay $1200/mo in one area, or $7500/mo in the other area. A wealthy class of people have always existed that can pay rent or mortgage or own at pretty much any price.

The landlords are the greedy ones - the neighbors and corporations that were already there for the most part. I’m not arguing for anything (in case someone mistakes this for a rent control argument), just have been in enough cities to hear it all.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#775

Post by nradov »

dasil003 wrote: post #719
nradov wrote: post #690

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The individual right to keep and bear arms is a natural right of all free people. It doesn't depend on the existence of the small arms industry. When the US Constitution was written there was hardly even an industry; most firearms were craft built.

> When the US Constitution was written there was hardly even an industry; most firearms were craft built. You mean at the dawn of the industrial revolution, before which, you know, everything was craft built?

Yes that's what I mean.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#776

Post by what_is_orcas »

sokoloff wrote: post #766
what_is_orcas wrote: post #729

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> some idealistic vision of how the world ought to be Yeah, I think it's a tragedy that we have constructed a society where everyone doesn't have basic needs met. I think it's a bigger tragedy that the alternative to the current system is considered idealistic . You don't have to agree with me, but if nobody talks about the ways that things could be, not the way that they are, then things will never change. I'm not s…

I don't have a strong position either way on exactly what the best minimum wage is, but I think it's clear that there are people who have skills and abilities in line with creating maybe $10, $12, or $15 per hour of value for a business. If you make it illegal for an employer to employ them at a rate where it's profitable, you're either forcing them to be out of work, to accept a quiltwork of hours ("we will only emp…

Yeah, I think this speaks to a much broader problem with how we attribute value in our society.

Monetary value has no bearing on actual value. For example, a smartphone is only $1000 because some people were paid $0 to produce it. Did those people not produce value? Take a fast food hamburger, it only costs $1 because it's not real meat (mostly), and the person who heated it up is being paid a wage with which they cannot afford reasonable housing and healthy food.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#777

Post by xapata »

vmception wrote: post #774
whimsicalism wrote: post #726

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There was a housing shortage in the 1970s too, so the supply side isnt a worthwhile deflection. Uh, source on the housing shortage in the 1970s being even remotely close to this level? Because, yeah, demand outstripping the heck out of supply is the "deflection" I'd pick.

Regardless, landlords set the price. They always had the opportunity to post ridiculous prices, and they bring them to the price people accept. They dont have to go to the edge of what someone would accept. But they do. The same tech worker (or whoever a local municipality happens to be pointing fingers at) would pay $1200/mo in one area, or $7500/mo in the other area. A wealthy class of people have always existed th…

Landlords are price takers, not price makers. The market for apartments is highly competitive.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#778

Post by sokoloff »

what_is_orcas wrote: post #776
sokoloff wrote: post #766

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have a strong position either way on exactly what the best minimum wage is, but I think it's clear that there are people who have skills and abilities in line with creating maybe $10, $12, or $15 per hour of value for a business. If you make it illegal for an employer to employ them at a rate where it's profitable, you're either forcing them to be out of work, to accept a quiltwork of hours ("we will only emp…

Yeah, I think this speaks to a much broader problem with how we attribute value in our society. Monetary value has no bearing on actual value. For example, a smartphone is only $1000 because some people were paid $0 to produce it. Did those people not produce value? Take a fast food hamburger, it only costs $1 because it's not real meat (mostly), and the person who heated it up is being paid a wage with which they ca…

Monetary value is the value to the business, though. If Pat can only serve enough customers to create $10 in value (above COGS) that customers are willing to pay for, a business can't pay Pat $15 for that work on a sustainable basis.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#779

Post by xapata »

gruez wrote: post #655
rspeele wrote: post #620

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The biggest gun manufacturer you can buy stock in is Ruger (RGR) with a market cap of 1.17B. Add Smith & Wesson and you're at 2B. Throw in Vista Outdoors which owns many of the top US ammo brands (plus some minor firearm and accessory brands) and you can get the total up to 4.3B. I'll multiply that by 10 to guesstimate privately held companies, local gun stores, and the rest of the long tail. So let's say we're at $4…

>Isn't that kind of podunk scale for an industry to have a rock solid hold on US politics? relevant: https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/09/18/too-much-dark-money-in... >all donations to all candidates, all lobbying, all think tanks, all advocacy organizations, the Washington Post, Vox, Mic, Mashable, Gawker, and Tumblr, combined, are still worth a little bit less than the almond industry. And Musk could buy them all.)

Good article. It's amusing how one throw-away statement didn't hold up:

> As rich as Elon Musk is, he’s only one of five hundred billionaires, and some of the others are even richer.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#780

Post by colinmhayes »

notreallyserio wrote: post #648
colinmhayes wrote: post #607

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Developers in low cost of living regions demand less money, so they're paid less. Sounds like Google is doing exactly what they said.

I'm not sure that's currently the case, what with the move to long term remote work. Do you have data showing workers demanding less pay after moving to cheaper areas while retaining the same position in the same organization?

FAANGs paying them less is all the data you need. If they thought they could get more they'd leave.
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