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Flutter 2

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Re: Flutter 2

#771

Post by matchbok »

eseidelGoogle wrote: post #107
rexelhoff wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Welp. We can kiss accessibility goodbye then, can't we?

[Flutter Eng. Dir. here] Accessibility is actually a really big deal here on Flutter (Ian Hickson and I both worked on Accessibility in browsers for years). AX is something I feel we've done pretty well with on iOS and Android. Web is still pretty early days, but many AX features should work already. We have more AX work to do on web yet. We've not yet taken any Flutter Web apps through Google's accessibility testing…

Translation: No. and flutter sucks.

Re: Flutter 2

#772

Post by eska »

danShumway wrote: post #360
hanniabu wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why more resources aren't being put into Qt and making that easier to use or building a more "web-developer-friendly" abstraction layer on top.

I don't know if they've changed their approach over the past year, but the last time I looked at Qt demos for the web, I was solidly unimpressed. At the time, they were making almost all of the same mistakes that Flutter is, and the devs I talked to seemed to be of the opinion that those problems wouldn't be fixed until browsers started adding brand new capabilities specifically for them. Looking now at the demos at…

The pizza demo didn't even let me input text into the credit card input boxes..

Re: Flutter 2

#773

Post by mda »

igouy wrote: post #736
mda wrote: post #640

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uuh the benchmarks in this site is very misleading (for all languages). Do your own tests otherwise the numbers there are practically meaningless.

Yes, when others have not written the programs you would like to compare — write your own programs to compare. https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/... How programs are written does matter.

Of course it matters, What I am saying is that; here is a program written in language A, which uses all the tricks in the book to solve this particular problem, here is a another one written in language B, it uses a completely different technique / algorithm and isn't optimized to death. How is it valid to make a decision about performance if implementations and restrictions are wildly different? So to me the site offers very little of value and I can not take any comparison from there seriously.

Re: Flutter 2

#774

Post by igouy »

mda wrote: post #773
igouy wrote: post #736

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, when others have not written the programs you would like to compare — write your own programs to compare. https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/... How programs are written does matter.

Of course it matters, What I am saying is that; here is a program written in language A, which uses all the tricks in the book to solve this particular problem, here is a another one written in language B, it uses a completely different technique / algorithm and isn't optimized to death. How is it valid to make a decision about performance if implementations and restrictions are wildly different? So to me the site of…

> … if implementations and restrictions are wildly different?

What if we can all see implementations that are not wildly different?

https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/...

https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/...

Re: Flutter 2

#775

Post by LocalPCGuy »

themacguffinman wrote: post #224
LocalPCGuy wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the context of the web, this seems like it should be a non-starter. Why should the developer be able to tell the user what can and cannot be selected?

They already can, CSS has a property called "user-select" that can be set to "none". It's pretty common to disable user selection on label text that isn't expected to be copied.

I am aware, and I would argue against any spec that told me to implement that also for the same reasons I don't think its a good idea for Flutter. Not that I haven't had to do it for reasons, but I'd make the case against it when I can.

Don't want to restart the entire thread that already existed, but I rarely check comments and just saw this.

Re: Flutter 2

#776

Post by LocalPCGuy »

themacguffinman wrote: post #503
danShumway wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it changes quite a lot for me . "This thing that will noticeably make your web experience worse won't affect John over there, so why are you complaining" is not the best response. I like to be able to override developer decisions about what text is and isn't selectable, and Flutter basically makes that impossible.

Sure but presumably many developers who are deciding whether to adopt Flutter aren't only targeting a population of you and other people in this thread. The fact remains that this is not a significant issue for most users and rational developers will weigh it as such against potential benefits that Flutter provides.

I think you overlook that, at least to me, it's an accessibility thing and as such, is not just the population of people here in this thread but is an issue for anyone who is disabled and takes advantage of those features of the web, and now will not be able to in Flutter apps.

I know Flutter is working on accessibility, but they have already made choices that are counter to the default expectations web users have. And are having to work to fix the accessibility issues they introduced by not adhering to web standards and/or best practices to begin with.

Re: Flutter 2

#777

Post by mda »

igouy wrote: post #748
mda wrote: post #689

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To give context, the implementations for the same problem are completely different, e.g. javascript versions uses worker thrreads on 4 cores for most of the examples. To compare actual performance first similar approaches should be used.

Similar like 5.37 seconds and 5.53 seconds ? https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/... :and: https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/...

Spectral norm is an interesting example because on single thread and without using SIMD, C, C++, Java, Javascript, Swift and Dart shows very similar performance characteristics (5-6 seconds). The loops are tight, there is not much to do for a decent compiler. it almost pure simple 64 bit floating point arithmetic.

Then you add multi-threading, and see a decent improvement, e.g. from 5 seconds to 1.5 seconds on 4 cores (almost all implementations show a similar gain)

And some languages with support for Vector operations further improves this to 0.7s

So this benchmark seems to be not very useful for comparing performance of any decent language. It could however be used for comparing improvements of using different techniques to solve the problem, or to showcase what new features brings to the table.

Re: Flutter 2

#778

Post by mda »

igouy wrote: post #774
mda wrote: post #773

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it matters, What I am saying is that; here is a program written in language A, which uses all the tricks in the book to solve this particular problem, here is a another one written in language B, it uses a completely different technique / algorithm and isn't optimized to death. How is it valid to make a decision about performance if implementations and restrictions are wildly different? So to me the site of…

> … if implementations and restrictions are wildly different? What if we can all see implementations that are not wildly different? https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/... https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/...

And as I explained on a different comment, performance of many different language / compilers for this particular benchmark are almost same "If" they use the same technique ( C, C++, Java, Swift, Javascript and Dart.)

But the argument here started as "Hey look language A is faster than language B" , while pointing out completely different implementations, which is, absurd.

Re: Flutter 2

#779

Post by igouy »

mda wrote: post #777
igouy wrote: post #748

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similar like 5.37 seconds and 5.53 seconds ? https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/... :and: https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/...

Spectral norm is an interesting example because on single thread and without using SIMD, C, C++, Java, Javascript, Swift and Dart shows very similar performance characteristics (5-6 seconds). The loops are tight, there is not much to do for a decent compiler. it almost pure simple 64 bit floating point arithmetic. Then you add multi-threading, and see a decent improvement, e.g. from 5 seconds to 1.5 seconds on 4 core…

> … not very useful for comparing performance of any decent language.

Saying "any decent language" assumes we know without measurement the very thing that we need to measure.

Showing "very similar performance characteristics" is a valid outcome.

Re: Flutter 2

#780

Post by igouy »

mda wrote: post #778
igouy wrote: post #774

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> … if implementations and restrictions are wildly different? What if we can all see implementations that are not wildly different? https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/... https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/...

And as I explained on a different comment, performance of many different language / compilers for this particular benchmark are almost same "If" they use the same technique ( C, C++, Java, Swift, Javascript and Dart.) But the argument here started as "Hey look language A is faster than language B" , while pointing out completely different implementations, which is, absurd.

> … while pointing out completely different implementations…

danielscrubs referenced measurements which showed similar performance for Dart and NodeJS programs, but did not mention that similar performance.

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