Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt • Hacker News Board

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#771

Post by zaroth » Fri, Dec 28, 2018, 1:00 PM UTC

beat wrote: post #709

apostacy wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone like Jordan Paterson is absolutely not like Stormfront. Refusing to support a best selling author and professor because some vocal activists have launched a smear campaign against him is not some sort of proxy for morality. Businesses are doing things because their owners want to punish certain opinions, regardless of how popular they are. Visa and Mastercard are using their monopoly power as payment processo…

And yet, you believe Jordan Peterson is banned, when he is not. Think about how you came to that belief. Now, think about how much we want the people who convinced you of it to have an unrestricted platform.

You’re assuming GP read a fake news article saying Peterson was banned. Much more charitable, and a safer assumption, is that this was a misunderstanding by the OP.

Jordan Peterson was the one who, by boycotting Patreon in response to their behavior, created the association which led to this misunderstanding. He tied his leaving to this event directly.

I seems to me that Peterson no longer felt safe putting his revenue stream in the hands of Patreon, because of what he saw as unfair and improper political bias which could one day disrupt his own finances.

That to me is a lot more worrisome than someone being wrong on the Internet.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#772

Post by vsl » Fri, Dec 28, 2018, 1:09 PM UTC

pavel_lishin wrote: post #38

orthecreedence wrote: post #33

I'm torn about this. On the one hand, Patreon shouldn't have to do business with people they don't like. On the other hand, at what point do we accept that we have different viewpoints and live and let live? The biggest one for me in recent history was Cloudflare arbitrarily deciding to stop hosting the Daily Stormer. Sure, DS is vile, but at the point we start enforcing censorship on a whim instead of hardened polic…

> On the other hand, at what point do we accept that we have different viewpoints and live and let live? Keep in mind that some of those viewpoints are "we live, others get eradicated".

> Keep in mind that some of those viewpoints are "we live, others get eradicated".

Well, that wasn't even close to being the case here, was it.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#773

Post by eli_gottlieb » Fri, Dec 28, 2018, 4:51 PM UTC

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #755

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #736

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not new , but I do believe back in the day there was such a thing as public-access television, and anyone could in fact start their own newspaper without being somehow banned from taking cash payments.

They are still not banned from taking cash payments. They are banned from using a specific cash-taking service. It is still possible to set up a PO box to mail cheques to. Public-access television did not mean that anyone can have a show(or was entitled to being shown), either, iirc. They could still start their own newspaper, and the indie/local newspaper cycle is still being perpetuated in artsy or politically left…

>They are still not banned from taking cash payments. They are banned from using a specific cash-taking service. It is still possible to set up a PO box to mail cheques to.

That's a de facto ban and you know it. There have been zero cases in which an internet business has kept itself above-water via asking for checks to be sent to a post-office box.

Instead, there should just be a post-office payment processor, operating over the network like all the others, and legally required to serve any customer.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#774

Post by stcredzero » Fri, Dec 28, 2018, 7:49 PM UTC

notafraudster wrote: post #761

stcredzero wrote: post #748

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, it's not hypocrisy to believe in protected classes but not wanting fascists to be one of them. It's the height of dishonesty to purposely label people as fascists when they are not. It's also dishonest if you know someone isn't a fascist, but you go along with the the narrative because it's easier. At best, the case with Sargon of Akkad is that Patreon was honestly fooled. I don't think Patreon should be oblig…

You do get to tell me you disagree with my answer. You don't get to tell me what my answer is, sorry dude.

"Beware what political tools you let people have. One day, they may be turned against your side."

I'm not telling you what your answer should be. I'm pointing out how your chosen answer can be turned around to bite you one day.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#775

Post by stcredzero » Fri, Dec 28, 2018, 7:58 PM UTC

bjourne wrote: post #754

stcredzero wrote: post #749

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The white supremacists are thrown off Patreon because of what they do not because of who they are. The problem is this: The power you talk of is arbitrary. People like Sargon of Akkad, who are not white supremacists, are being thrown off Patreon, while the media are giving them cover by spinning a narrative. This is the classic pattern of oppression. You vilify people with a label, which becomes meaningless as the la…

I have no idea what your point is. Sargon of Akkad is ostensibly being kicked of Patreon because of what he has said not because of who he are . Comparing that to business refusing to serve customers because they are black is completely delusional. I'm as much in favor of free speech as you are, but I'm also in favor of property rights. "MY site, MY rules" is an old adage that has never been truer.

I have no idea what your point is

This whole pattern of behavior with de-platforming and un-personing -- I recognize it from my past. In my personal history, it's the behavior of people who are toxic with a tribal outlook. In my youth, it was the homophobes and racists who acted like this towards me -- coercing and silencing, instead of applying universal principles and engaging in arguments.

"MY site, MY rules" is an old adage that has never been truer.

A company owned a company mining town, right down to the sidewalks and streets, then tried to apply that logic to prevent people they didn't like from distributing pamphlets. The 1st amendment should take precedence over property rights.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBozijndSLc

If you have freedom of commerce, but no individual freedoms outside of that, like freedom of speech, then you basically have China. So it's a very reasonable trade off to make: give up a little freedom of commerce to ensure more basic personal freedoms.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#776

Post by repolfx » Sat, Dec 29, 2018, 11:19 AM UTC

dang wrote: post #745

repolfx wrote: post #730

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The distinction you're looking for doesn't exist. The two sentences would be considered equivalent by anyone who isn't wildly over-attuned to political correctness issues.

I don't agree with that, and it's relevant to this forum in an important way. There's a wide spectrum between my saying "that's false" or "you're mistaken", vs. saying "you're a liar". The distinction here is a similar one. It doesn't need to be a moral distinction. When negative statements are made neutrally, discussion goes much better than when they are made pejoratively. This entire site, if not the entire intern…

I'm afraid I genuinely don't see the difference between the two sentences Dan, it's not an attempt to be awkward. I'm sure if you fed them into a mechanical parser/semantic analyzer they'd reduce to the same predicate logic.

Let's start by agreeing that "Americans" and "American people" are equivalent, at least when discussing statistical facts about populations. Then the two sentences can be rewritten as:

"the homicide rate amongst the American people is much higher than amongst the Swiss"

and

"American people are more homicidal than the swiss"

or taking out the nouns:

"the X rate amongst Y is much higher than amongst the Z"

vs

"Y is more X than Z"

which I am 100% sure, if put to people in a neutral poll, would be considered the same.

But I'm also mystified as to the wider goal. TheDong admits the two constructions are similar, yet his reaction is extreme - one is fine and the other triggers calls for banning people completely, labels of "hateful and divisive" and so on. That kind of unpredictable and over the top behaviour triggered by almost non-existent differences in phrasing is negative to Hacker News, and clearly violates the various guidelines about reading what people say in good faith, let alone the one about reacting to the strongest possible interpretation!

Given that TheDong knows how similar they are, one must wonder what the purpose of treating them so differently is.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#777

Post by pcvarmint » Sun, Dec 30, 2018, 2:29 PM UTC

This article is very incomplete and very late, because this Patreon story has been known for weeks among those who listen to non-MSM podcasts funded by Patreon. I suspect it's damage control for Patreon.

For more complete information, listen to Tim Pool. [0]

0. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=timcast+patreon

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#778

Post by intrasight » Sun, Dec 30, 2018, 6:37 PM UTC

tynpeddler wrote: post #256

intrasight wrote: post #93

"And while many internet creators argue that Silicon Valley is trying to censor free speech, what the companies are doing is legal, said Vera Eidelman, staff attorney with the American Civil Liberties Union’s speech, privacy and technology project. “The First Amendment right is on the side of the company,” she said." I think that sums up the matter. If people want to raise funds from their supporters, they should dis…

Checks themselves require the banks to act as intermediates. I don't know if banks would be allowed to deplatform someone in the same manner as patreon.

Probably not an issue with banks. Patrons can always send cash ;)

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#779

Post by specialist » Sun, Dec 30, 2018, 10:38 PM UTC

asdffdsa wrote: post #757

specialist wrote: post #630

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More specific than pointing out the contradiction of letting corporations do whatever they want while expecting them to behave a certain way?

Yes, that's a pretty short-sighted contradiction which untangled itself after some elementary analysis; most people are trying to figure out what the boundaries of corporate behavior are and should be. I think ultimately I'm against censoring out 'alt-right' ideas and the like because we've already taken a pro-business approach to freedom like some of the commenters are suggesting (a more allowable use of the right t…

The tension between freedom of association vs freedom of speech.

I'm strongly in the "my house, my rules" camp. Don't like my moderation? Fine, host your own party.

Some argue that today's large services have a greater responsibility. Because they serve a public good. In some cases approaching a public utility. So perhaps freedom of speech concerns outweigh "house rules" (freedom of association).

Per the paradox of tolerance, I have zero sympathy for the agitators (trolls), regardless of flavor, so am the wrong person to adjudicate.

I point out the (widespread) contradiction, because the other rights are often ignored.

Re: Patreon Bars Anti-Feminist for Racist Speech, Inciting Revolt

#780

Post by 75dvtwin » Tue, Jan 01, 2019, 4:45 AM UTC

There are not many things, that are more dishonest than selective outrage, hidden behind the veil of 'moral high ground'.

Is anybody auditing Patreon to apply same level of 'checks' to all the other users? Is there a legal audit-framework for this, is it based on Twitter/Facebook like stats ?

Here is Facebook banning a post of police officers wife, who was killed by illegal immigrant[1]

How is this ok?!

[1] https://www.theblaze.com/news/facebook-takes-action-against-...

This is total madness with kind of garbage morality.

It will bring on biased courts system (they will look like inquisitions in the middle ages).

And, that, as we know, will bring irreconcilable fractions, and those, eventually, will bring on a civil war(s).