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Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

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Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#771

Post by marmot777 »

Lio wrote: post #765
marmot777 wrote: post #733

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of examples of great leaders who were direct, driven, and hard, yet still treated people with respect. It's not an easy trick to pull of, which is why people like Steve Jobs just said fuck it.

Could you post a few examples? Woz seems like a nice guy and Warren Buffet likewise. Both seems to have worked in small teams.

What are Larry Page and Sergey Brin's reputation in this regard?

Since we're talking about the open source world, how about Guido van Rossum?

Paul Graham seems like he's probably a direct yet civil guy. http://paulgraham.com/safe.html

Elon Musk isn't abusive. He extremely driven and demanding but that's not the same as abusive.

I could expand the list quite a bit if you want but do you really believe it'd be a challenge for me to list important leaders who aren't assholes? BTW, I don't know these people so I might get it wrong regarding some of the people I'd list.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#772

Post by Zhyl »

yesenadam wrote: post #706
chc wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a non sequitur unless you have a hidden assumption along the lines of "We currently have the best of all possible systems."

Sorry, I don't know what you mean. I was trying to say something about my feeling that having a policy of respecting people because it's good for productivity seems obscene to me. Once you are thinking that way, whether you decided it's good for productivity or not, you no longer respect people, it seems to me. That is often called "losing your soul".

Just to clarify, I'm definitely not trying to suggest that this is the only reason you should be respectful. This is more a message about people within tech, who are numerous, that get frustrated with working with other people due to actual or perceived incompetence. The parent comment mentioned the 'it's ok to be an asshole if you're right' myth, which is particularly prominent in software projects or in tech related discussions. I would deduce that the only reason that smart, capable people do not invest the time or the energy into moderating their tone and choosing their words is because they don't see value in it. My point is that there is empirical value in it even if you're purely seeing it as a means to an ends.

Absolutely the rest of us who are just nice and pleasant as part of our day to day should continue to do so, we just need to remember that their isn't really a justification for ad hominem attacks as part of professional discourse.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#773

Post by FuckOffNeemo »

coffeemug wrote: post #548
FuckOffNeemo wrote: post #527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"A man who says a spade is a spade is only fit to wield one" - I can't recall who this quote is from but it had a profound impact on my how I conduct myself. Or: "A hammer is no more or less honest than a scalpel." I had the same sense of reality as Linus is having now, fortunately I was only 26 when it was brought to my attention. Previously I took pride in calling a spade a spade. I was abrupt, people actually prai…

If calling a spade a spade is defined as being an asshole for the enjoyment of being an asshole, then I agree with you. If that's what you were doing, then good on you for growing out of it (seriously!) The flipside of being too diplomatic is that everything shifts too slowly for people to notice, and by the time they have noticed they're boiled like a frog. That's why SF police basically doesn't work at all, there a…

I don't enjoy being an arsehole.

No, that's not entirely true. Sometimes I do. I take pride in my work, I take pride in where I've come. If some one comes out and says something that's so moronic that it makes me cringe, I consider it my civil and/or professional duty to bring this around. How I bring this around depends on many factors.

I replied to one of your other comments about an 'Architect' who claimed AWS was single site. Those type of comments... I will never harbor. This particular gentlemen needs euthanising and forced into retirement. He and his cronies will single handedly destroy the company I left but, after 4.5 of years of fighting them. I gave up and quit. I can't fix stupid. And his bosses couldn't see through their bullshit. My mental health deserves better.

I'd consider those arguments described above and opinions like that to be up there with fucking anti-vaccers and (I hate to say it... contentiously) global-warming deniers.

But there's a nuance there. I can't go around talking to people like they don't know what they're talking about all of the time. I could be wrong. I have been. Even when I was absolutely certain I was correct. Even if it's not that binary and there's something in the grey between what they're saying and I'm saying. You can be delicate sometimes. Sometimes you need to be. Sometimes you need to be a hammer and destroy some one with words. Sometimes you need to be a feather duster. Or a scalpel. And sometimes you need to shut the fuck up and quit.

Edit: I'm speaking here amongst like minded people and the comment about euthanasia was entirely sarcastic for the sake of humour. In the context of this conversation I'd never say this to anyone. I however, did quote Full Metal Jacket ("What is your major malfunction, numbnuts?") and expresses my shock and embarrassment that we both represent the same company.

It's evident I'm still figuring out the syntax around the word 'tact'.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#774

Post by [deleted] »

ggreer wrote: post #600
coffeemug wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, it isn't. For example in today's environment when someone suggests something stupid, it is no longer acceptable to say "this seems stupid to me" because it might hurt someone's feelings. So instead you walk it back and say things diplomatically (which is a tiny form of a white lie). Then people reply to your diplomatic statement with another diplomatic statement, and pretty soon nobody is saying the thing t…

I totally agree with this. I actually quit my job at Red Hat because of the culture of non-criticism. I kept getting in trouble for pushing back against stupid decisions, even though I never insulted a single person. For example: When the design team added 10MB of web fonts to the app, I said something like, "Users don't care whether the font is Open Sans or Arial. They care whether things load quickly and don't re-f…

[deleted]

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#775

Post by bluecalm »

nomel wrote: post #650
jjeaff wrote: post #552

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is anyone really rallied to the cause by Linus himself? I think the product is the only real draw. With the exception of a select few that simply want to work with someone as high profile and legendary as Linus.

Personally, and maybe I’m in the minority when thinking this, but I can’t stand working with polite people. They not only slow down the progress of a project by often causing unneeded busywork, from simply not halting bad ideas, they often slow my learning progress down by not telling me I’m wrong. If you see something stupid, call it out. If I’m doing something stupid or say something wrong, call me out! There’s obv…

You're in the minority but you're not the only one. You can see the sentiment expressed about Rust community a lot. Super nice - don't ever say anything that may upset someone - kind of atmosphere is off-putting to many. I for one wouldn't want to work in such environment but I would love to work with Linus.

The problem is that people who prefer direct non-bs communication are also usually more emotionally mature and better at adjusting to others. They will keep quiet or look to move somewhere else but will rarely complain. Meanwhile easily upset and less stable people complain more readily and usually louder to force others to adopt their preferred style of communication (which often comes down to "don't criticize me and use the kind of language I prefer")

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#776

Post by atoav »

throw091618 wrote: post #647

Words and phrases I hate seeing from a brilliant and competent leader: 1. "[something] was Not OK" 2. An apology to "people who were hurt by my behaviour" 3. "I'm going to get outside help to learn how to be better" etc etc etc Basically all the hallmarks of American PC overly sensitive culture that ruin excellent organisations or products because of weak-minded, mediocre nobodies. Here's hoping Linus comes back fire…

I disagree. It is not really quantifiable whether Linus' (at times erratic) patterns of communication had an positive or negative impact. You can very well be firm and tell people what they need to hear while staying friendly. If they realize you say the truth it will be more effective if you didn't give them an excuse to blame everything on you.

Communication is important in bigger project. This is why leaders have to be both aware and in control of what message gets across, otherwise the whole thing is based on luck and people's good will to read what you might have meant. Linus himself said he wasn't aware and that alone is a bad thing.

Don't get me wrong, you can totally get somewhere while beeing rude and erratic, but in my experience there are more civil ways which will get you there faster, with better morale and less overall friction.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#779

Post by [deleted] »

Lio wrote: post #765
marmot777 wrote: post #733

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of examples of great leaders who were direct, driven, and hard, yet still treated people with respect. It's not an easy trick to pull of, which is why people like Steve Jobs just said fuck it.

Could you post a few examples? Woz seems like a nice guy and Warren Buffet likewise. Both seems to have worked in small teams.

[deleted]

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#780

Post by DEADBEEFC0FFEE »

grzm wrote: post #684
DEADBEEFC0FFEE wrote: post #682

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm somewhat intrigued by your comments about a leaderboard because I'm not familiar with it. Please say more about that. With regards to not having perspective, because he's so unique (or doing something unique), you may be right. I wonder if in fact he has been enabled for many years by his closest collaborators. People who should have said, "Hey Linus don't be a dick". There's a debate going on in Australia, about…

> "I'm somewhat intrigued by your comments about a leaderboard because I'm not familiar with it. Please say more about that." https://news.ycombinator.com/leaders Other lists: https://news.ycombinator.com/lists

I see. Thank you.
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