Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#771

Post by Piskvorrr » Thu, Apr 12, 2018, 1:19 PM UTC

tim333 wrote: post #641

Animats wrote: post #552

Tesla's system demands more from drivers than manual driving. The driver has to detect automation failures after they occur, but before a crash. This requires faster reaction time than merely avoiding obstacles. Here's a good example - a Tesla on autopilot crashing into a temporary road barrier which required a lane change.[1] This is a view from the dashcam of the vehicle behind the Tesla. At 00:21, things look norm…

>obvious orange obstacle Apparently they loose the colour info and process black and white because it is easier. https://electrek.co/2017/05/16/tesla-autopilot-2-0-can-see/ This seems to have been an issue in some of the crashes and maybe was a mistake. See also for example the trailer an earlier Tesla crashed into https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/06/20/tesla_death_crash_a... Kind of obvious in colour but at the ti…

If that's true, that would be cutting the corners to a criminal degree. "Safety Red? Signal Orange? Traffic Yellow? Nah, we're good with Meaningless Grey, Meaningless Grey and Meaningless Grey."

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#772

Post by Piskvorrr » Thu, Apr 12, 2018, 1:26 PM UTC

culturestate wrote: post #688

Erlich_Bachman wrote: post #681

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what it's commonly called currently. Not super weird if you consider that there is an autopilot on planes - which only keeps direction and altitude. You also have to keep en eye on it and of course steer it to where you want it to go.

Autopilot on a modern commercial aircraft does much more than hold heading and altitude. It's quite possible for autopilot to fly the plane autonomously almost entirely from takeoff to landing.

Almost almost, iff on happy path and in good enough weather and this and that...In other words, just what we have here: "it helps you fly/drive, unless it doesn't, but you're still in command and responsible for taking over if it becomes unhappy." With flying, there's rarely a situation such as "concrete wall at 12 o'clock" - this might be the distinction w/r/t driving.

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#773

Post by maxxxxx » Thu, Apr 12, 2018, 1:32 PM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #754

omarforgotpwd wrote: post #593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try it. it’s not impossible. I do it all the time. Have you ever noticed how passengers are still paying attention to what’s going on and sometimes even turn their head to see where the car is turning? it’s like that, except you’re in the drivers seat. it’s not more work than driving.

Ok, imagine if you are a passenger in a car, sitting next to the driver. You are heading towards a turn, with a solid barrier in your path if you don't turn. Your driver is awake, holding the wheel firmly with eyes wide open. Do you think there's any chance you could intervene between realizing that the driver is not turning and the car hitting the barrier? You could be paying 200% attention to the road, but there's…

No idea why you are downvoted. Your comment is right on.

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#774

Post by pbhjpbhj » Thu, Apr 12, 2018, 2:02 PM UTC

kbutler wrote: post #556

osrec wrote: post #491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it'll take years to update our infrastructure. For example, we could embed beacons into catseyes to make it easier to know where the road boundaries are etc. Also, we could make sections of the highway available with the new infrastructure piece by piece. It is just as progressive as your suggestion, but the problem becomes a whole lot easier to solve when you target change towards infrastructure as wel…

These will take a lane from regular traffic and give it to rich people who buy an expensive car. It also will not ensure exclusion of manual vehicles, so it won't create the exclusion necessary for the predictable driving environment.

In think it could work, that lane can be the same as is used for autonomous lorries (that potentially benefit everyone if they deliver cheaper goods).

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

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Post by pbhjpbhj » Thu, Apr 12, 2018, 2:09 PM UTC

buvanshak wrote: post #657

supernovae wrote: post #514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It won't take that long. Also, people are terrible at detecting objects directly in front of them and just like computers, the human brain can be cheated, overloaded, inept or inexperienced leading to an accident. Now we have cars with lane assist, smart breaking, auto pilot features and that's only in the past 5-10 years. Of all the places where technology can save lives, its definitely in vehicles/transportation.

> Also, people are terrible at detecting objects directly in front of them and just like computers, the human brain can be cheated, overloaded, inept or inexperienced leading to an accident. How many optical illusions do you usually see in the roads while driving, that can result in an accident? I am not even talking about the "people are terrible at detecting objects directly in front of them" part. I mean, how can…

Dips aren't quite an optical illusion; nor are blind spots, or obscured vehicles (behind frame of the car or behind another vehicle), but those are all quite common and are similar to illusions (you see imperfectly).

Sometimes you'll see multiple white lines, or lanes that appear to vere off due to dirt on the road. A bit of litter looks like a person, a kid looks like they might run out.

A lot of times I find I'm searching for something and can't see it but it was in my visual field. I think this worsens with age.

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#776

Post by derangedHorse » Thu, Apr 12, 2018, 2:21 PM UTC

salawat wrote: post #770

corney91 wrote: post #742

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If they had the ability to measure confidence in the system, they would use it to issue warnings or disable autopilot Yeah, that's basically what I'm asking for, maybe a warning light at a certain threshold would be a better default, personally I'd still find a number more trustworthy though. > The "confidence meter" would almost certainly be 100% right up until it crashes into an obvious obstacle If image recognit…

The problem is, given a neural network, the decided course of action IS at 100% confidence. Unless you design the network to specifically answer "how similar is this?" and pair it with a training set and the output of another executing neural net, a "confidence meter" isn't possible. This is one of the trickier bits to wrap one's mind around with neural networks. The systems we train for specialized tasks have no con…

There is actually some sort of classification confidence regarding outputs. It's not a binary yes or no for output neurons regardless of what abstraction you've observed in whichever tensorflow or other high level API being used.

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#777

Post by pbhjpbhj » Thu, Apr 12, 2018, 2:22 PM UTC

intended wrote: post #530

fapjacks wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to preface my post to say that I think developing self-driving automobiles is so important that it's worth the implied cost of potentially tens of thousands of lives in order to perfect the technology, because that's what people do; make sacrifices to improve the world we live in so that future generations don't have to know the same problem. But I think you're right. I think the "best" way to move forward unt…

Its not going to happen. Peopl I’ve said it before, and I’ll repeat it till eventually the tide turns on HN and elsewhere. You will not have full autonomy unless you control the road itself. At which point you are better off just making it mass transit.

You could also, presumably, have supervision - not control the road, but control all road users. But that's equally impractical I think.

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#778

Post by Jemmeh » Thu, Apr 12, 2018, 2:37 PM UTC

jakobegger wrote: post #679

Jemmeh wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stopping in the middle of the road is dangerous (people will crash into you) and it would also be hard to make something have a feature to pull them off the road. If the computer reads it wrong you'll be in a ditch from the car trying to pull you off the road into something with no shoulder. The shoulder of a road is also dangerous as well even if there is a proper one because people often do not stay exactly in thei…

Just make the car turn on the warning lights and gently come to a stop when the driver lets go of the steering wheel or is otherwise not paying attention. There are two possibilities: 1) The driver is actually incapacitated. Then slowing down and stopping is a million times safer than continuing to drive. 2) The driver was looking at his mobile phone. Then he'll probably quickly react and take control of the car agai…

Big city highway traffic where the road is crowded and moving fast. Those people aren't paying attention either and will slam into you. I've seen cars stopped on the freeway a few times in Atlanta because they broke down and it causes a big wreck. Responders really rush to get them off the road because it's so dangerous.

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#779

Post by pbhjpbhj » Thu, Apr 12, 2018, 2:43 PM UTC

mozumder wrote: post #426

fapjacks wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to preface my post to say that I think developing self-driving automobiles is so important that it's worth the implied cost of potentially tens of thousands of lives in order to perfect the technology, because that's what people do; make sacrifices to improve the world we live in so that future generations don't have to know the same problem. But I think you're right. I think the "best" way to move forward unt…

People love their cars too much. Cars should just be phased out in favor of mass transit everywhere. Yes, you can live without the convenience of your car. No really, you can. Now think about how you would enable that to happen. What local politicians are you willing to write to, or support, in order to enable a better mass transit option for you? And how would you enable more people to support those local politician…

You're right. But you're going to have to change the whole of society to achieve that end - from the law, through planning and building, through entertainment, shopping and all, to farming, ... the whole kaboodle.

I lived car free in a small industrial UK city, we couldn't manage that with kids (too expensive for one).

Bus seats are awful, why?, because they're made vandal resistant (and hard wearing). They're too small for a lot of people now as well. So you need to remodel buses IMO; your going to need to be hotter on vandals, so change the approach of the courts. Things bifurcate across areas of society like that: Supermarkets, houses, zoning, etc. all are designed with mass car ownership as a central tenet.

Re: Tesla issues strongest statement yet blaming driver for deadly crash

#780

Post by thelastidiot » Thu, Apr 12, 2018, 2:50 PM UTC

BlueGh0st wrote: post #147

>Tesla sent Dan Noyes a statement Tuesday night that reads in part, "Autopilot requires the driver to be alert and have hands on the wheel... No it doesn't. Maybe the agreement when you use that feature does but if they really wanted to/cared enough they would make it so it only works while your hands are on the wheel. I'm still on the fence and think commercially releasing this very experimental technology as a prod…

It is absolutely irresponsible. While facebook is in the news as a reminder that companies that unethically exploit the lack of regulations in emerging technologies for the competitive purpose of getting higher customer adoption will, at one point, have to report to congress and become responsible.